Making a big purchase

It's best to have your backup, be the same camera. That's why I would suggest the 1D III X 2 route. But, instead of getting the 16-35mm I would get the 24-70mm f/2.8L, 85mm f/1.2L and the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS combination. It's sounds like you want to get into event photography so how could you live without the magic of the 85L? It's the best for portrait work! King of Bokeh! King of low light/fast glass!

I like Len's lens lineup as well. Get the 85 1.2, in the right hands, magic is not too strong a word. As an event or portrait photographer, the 16-35, nice as it is, would be much less valuable to you. Good luck.

I totally agree with both Steve and Len 100%.

I have a 1D3 and love absolutley everything about it. Unbelievable at high ISO! You can literally shoot anything with this camera. I have done some very large prints with it. Very sharp 18x24. I'm sure your work wont require this very often. Probably 11x14 at the most. I wish I could afford another one. I would like to run my 24-70 f2.8L on one and 70- 200 f2.8L IS on the other. I know if I squeeze something with the 40D I have I will always wonder how the shot would have been with the 1D. If you've never used a 1D, get ready. Its a beast, but man its worth it. If you are coming from a Rebel, you are gonna be shocked at the results. Provided you shoot it right to begin with.

The view finder is big and beautifull. That probably will shock you the most. Its like not using a view finder at all after looking through a Rebel view finder. Focus speed, accuracy, feel, speed speed speed. The files are so clear and smooth, but very sharp. I like shooting grandparents with it. There is something about the way the files look. Maybe its the contrast in the skin, but it looks so real, smooth, sharp. I guess you can tell I like my 1D3. I gotta get off here and go shoot now. See Ya. Good luck with your decision, best of luck with your business.

I'm a big fan of buying things incrementally. If it was me I'd get one 1 DIII and the 24-70mm, use the XSi as backup and when it paid for itself and if I had reached for some other piece of equipment several times then I'd just get whatever I felt the need for. You don't have to buy it all at once, specially if you aren't sure what you need or want. You're in business to make money not spend money. Good luck!

The 1D3 is a very special camera - 2 is even better!

Wow, quick responses.

Gil, I agree and I've been piecing things together for 7 years now, which I know is short term compared to many people on this site. Part of the fun and the excitement is buying it all at once. Besides, even if the business doesn't go I wouldn't regret the purchases. Photography is my life. Hopefully 20 years down the road I will still feel the same!

As for the 85 1.2, I have read many great reviews about it and originally it was in my list of to buy. I originally had a bunch of primes cause I like fast apertures, but ended up switching over to the zooms because 3 lenses is far easier to lug around than 6 or 7.

However, I am definately not opposed to switching the 16-35 for the 85. It's a couple hundred dollars more expensive, but extremely fast. I have used the 3 zooms but I've never used the 85 1.2. Does anyone have any images taken at F1.2 that I could see, besides the examples on the canon site. I'd love to see a real world example.

My advice: get some used full frame stuff and see if your business has legs. 1Ds2 or 5D, a small backup camera, a lens or two, some serious lights, and you are set. That's all you need for the declared business purpose. As opposed to hobby, you must do cost analysis on all your purchases if you wish to run a successful business. Besides, in my book, starting from $20K - Canadian or US - in the hole is a bad business practice. YMMV of course. As an aside, have you ever tried shooting a wedding with a 1Ds3 and 1D3 body, plus 2 lenses and lights on you? If not, try it - it is a very quick way to developing a very serious hatred for photography: this stuff is veeeeery heavy and after an hour or so one tends to question one's sanity and starts looking for a 5D with a smallish zoom :-)))

The question is, is the 24-70 (30-90 with crop) wide enough? I love the extra reach, but do you also require a wide angle as well? The 24-70 f2.8 is a superb general purpose lens btw. While not a pro lens, the 85 f1.8 is a very good yet cheap lens that could help with the budget if you wanted to keep the 16-35.

It's surely more important to buy the best possible camera rather than be side-tracked from doing so because of immediately wanting a back-up. (A 1Ds and 5D sounds like a perfect combo to me, unless you intend to shoot sports.)

Regarding whether or not you should pay extra for B&W filters, I personally am convinced by the following, which you may have already come across - http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/B+W-UV-Filter.aspx

I also agree with Gil, be very carefull on your spending. Maybe buy one camera right now, keep the XSi if the 1D3 dies for some unseen reason. It "is" a back up. Keep the extra cash in hand, help this business grow. I've noticed since I started mine I have to be very carefull at every $1 I spend. Maybe a couple of years down the road, the 1D3 becomes the back up and buy a new "1D?" Or just run the 1D3 til the wheels fall off. Squeeze every drop out of it to maximize your investment. No reason a 1D3 cant produce stellar images 5 or 6 years from now.

Now that I got over the excitement of someone getting 2 1D3's, I think that would be the "smarter" business decision.

Good job Gil by pulling the reins on this discussion. I hope my assumption of your name is not wrong, but leave it to a women to "Control the boys with their toy's" :-)

Being torn between 1D and 1Ds and 5D suggests that it isn't quite time to be making investments yet. These are quite different camera and their best uses are somewhat different.

If money is no object and you are fine carrying a rather large camera body, the 1DsM3 clearly has the most IQ potential of the group - especially if you shoot with optics chosen to match the type of shooting you do and you use good technique, including tripod, MLU, and remote release.

If you are more of a hand held shooter I think that any advantage that the 1DsM3 provides will be considerably reduced. Here, if you want FF the 5D or its replacement might be the better bet. If you don't care about FF and/or you need the unique features of the 1DM3 (e.g. very fast operation) then it could be your choice.

If you need the high IQ potential of the 1DsM3 and really need a "backup" camera, why wouldn't you use a 5D? It is less expensive and provides the same FF format that would cause you to consider the 1Ds. If, on the other hand, it isn't a "backup" primarily, but rather an alternate camera for different types of photography, the 1D could provide some extra versatility.

If you are starting out with serious "weddings and engagements" and similar work, neither of the 1D camera bodies is strictly necessary. For example, you could easily do this sort of work with, say, a 5D and a 40D. Is that your main focus?

About lenses, one can't really offer much comment without knowing a bit more about how and what you intend to shoot. There is nothing wrong with those L lenses, and they might be the first choice for a number of people. But there are other options and without knowing whether you considered them and/or why you dismissed them... For example, lots of people doing the sort of work you describe would have at least some large aperture primes, especially for portrait work. Others might find the 24-105mm f/4 L IS to have some advantages over the 24-70mm f/2.8 L. And so on.

Finally, go slow. It must be wonderful to know that you'll have plenty of funds to buy whatever you want - but sometimes this actually leads to poorer decisions. Just because the 1-Series bodies are bigger and cost more does not _necessarily_ mean that they are the best choices for your work. I'm not saying that they are the wrong choices either - I'm just saying that it is important that you understand the functional reasons for your choices if you are to make the wisest investments.

Dan

I absolutely agree having the funds leads to poorer decisions. That is why I chose to ask on this forum.

I was never debating the 5D as a main body, just as a second to a 1 series.

I am definitely going to purchase a 1 series body as the main camera, mostly because I am intending on the body I buy to last for many years. I do agree that a 5D and a 40D would work for just weddings and engagements, but I do not intend on doing only weddings and engagements. I shoot a lot of animals, not so much wild life but more portraits of pets. Trying to catch a cat in the air chasing a toy or a dog jumping off a dock into the water is one of the reasons I am leaning to the 1D, that 10 fps will really help in those situations, as well as the smart autofocus of the series 1 bodies. USM is great as long as the body gets the right focus point. However, the added resolution of the 1DS allows for a tighter crop should I feel the need, leaving plenty of pixels for printing afterwards.

Also, I have a friend who is a very popular shooter for iStockphoto and I had considered using microstock as another revenue stream. Here, the added resolution of the 1DS means more $$$ for the people who buy large images.

Also, living in Southern Alberta it's farmer central, and a lot of rodeos and farm land situations where it's really dusty, so I want the weather sealing of the series 1 body.

Full frame... I'm not sold that I need it. The 1.3 crop factor of the 1D is why I was looking at the 16-35, still allowing me to achieve a mid-wide angle shot.

I had also thought of using a 1D and a 5D, but since I have the budget for it I figured two 1D bodies would be nicer as they are the same so moving between them would be simple. Also, I had mentioned that although it would be a "backup", they will both be used at the same time most likely, placing the telephoto on one and the standard zoom on the other.

As for the spending all the money during the start of a business, this has been accounted for and I am leaving room for operating capital. I have this money set aside strictly for the equipment to start, and I really want to do it right.

I have used the 1DS Mark 2 and definitely understand the weight issue, but you can't have everything right? Most situations I would be using a monopod on location, and a tripod in studio. However, there will be times to just suck it up and lug it around. Many photojournalists do it all day long, so for a couple hours at a time throughout the day here and there I will manage.

Thanks again everyone for your opinions.

"I live in Canada so my prices are quite a bit higher than the US"

Not if you buy through US online retailers such as B&H.

I like your lens choices;

"16-35L 2.8, the 24-70L 2.8, and the 70-200L 2.8 IS"

But get the feeling money is burning a hole in your pocket if you're looking to buy *twin* 1-series bodies. My 2 cents, get those lens, with B+W MRC filters (through B&H they're not that much, check it out), and *start* with a 5D. Don't bother with the 24-105 "kit" lens.

Joshua, having said all this, it sounds like you've done most of your homework. I say get the 1D3 for the speed. It will also be fine for larger stuff. Unless you plan on doing alot of 20x30 or bigger. I would not go 2 1 series cameras. No need. A back up is for emergencies. A 1D wont create many if any at all. You will find yourself never using both so use a lesser camera as back up. I'd go 5D or 5D II as back up. The 24-70f2.8L and 70-200 f2.8L IS is a must. Either coupled to a 1D3 is great. THe 5D is a nice camera....still, to have as a back up as you wont need it often.

Having this set aside for equipment is good. Go ahead and do it right, but dont over kill. I think you already know what you need. This kind of purchase is always nice to have some reassurance from photo.net users.

Some here may disagree, but I think if you go into business, its best to have a 1 series if for no other reason...appearance. A customer or potential customer will always take you more serious when you have one of these jewels. The other bodies look so much like the $600 DSLR's everyone has, that they think, "His equipment is no better than mine", "Why should I pay him when I can do it myself"

This is NOT correct(so please dont start bashing), but its true. I've seen it. Where I shoot, everyone has a DLSR, but when they see that 1D, they know its nothing like what they are holding. It shouldnt be the only reason to buy one, but lets face it. Technology has gotten so cheap, just about everyone can afford one so you need something to set yourself apart from the "MOM/DAD with a camera". I see people at the track with 20D/30D/40D all the time. But when they see that 1D3, they say"Man I wish I had that camera. Mine doesnt take good pictures like yours". We all know its not true. I've seen very good shots with a 20D and have made some with my 40D. But I dont say that. Let them stay in Auto, and think they need a $4500 camera to do what I do. I'll quit using up bandwidth now.

Really, I wish you all the luck with this business. I'm still hard at it and know exactly what you are dealing with. Do every single thing you do your very best and absolutley nothing less. The word will travel fast.

1D Mark III with a 5D backup.

16-35L, 24-70L, 70-200 f/2.8 L IS, 85 f/1.2L

Shoot with the 1D as your main camera with the zooms, but keep the 85L glued on the 5D. It will make images with a look that no other "Mom/Dad with a camera" can do.

Gabriel, the 1D Mark III is not just a sports camera because it's so fast. The 1 Series are the best, but outside the studio I think the 1D is a more practical camera than the 1Ds simply because it produces low noise images when used in low light - something you quite often have to deal with in the real world.

Sheldon's solution is a good one (and you get some extra width from your lenses), but the 5D's lack of twin memory card slots for safety and lack of weather sealing, only 12-bit RAW files put me off using my 5D for anything but a backup. You could swap lenses instead.

I'd have to agree with Sheldon, seems like a good mix if you need a kit to go now. If you are happy using the rebel as a back-up for a little while then maybe wait till photonika to see if there is a "new 5D" but if you think you'll miss shots by waiting then just get one. The other thing about waiting to buy your new back-up is that you will have some shooting time with the 1D and so you will be in a better position to decide if you want/need another 1D as your back-up.

1D3 + used 1DS2 with the lenses you mentioned plus 85 1.2L and 24L.

Put the 24L on the Rebel for street shooting or for just plain light weight setup. Use it on either 1 series and you'll have a great low light combo.

Have fun deciding!

Joshua -

I've been down the exact same road you're travelling and ended up with the same setup. For glass...16-35mm, 24- 70mm, and 70-200mm IS...all 2.8. I originally bought all the glass when I shot with a 20D knowing I'd eventually upgrade to a 1D shortly down the road. The 1.6 crop factor on the 20D made my 16-35mm wide enough at the wide end, but since I've upgraded to the 1D Mark III, it's faboulous with a 1.3 crop. In my opinion, I believe the 16-35mm is sufficient and there is no need for the 10-22mm, but it all depends on what you shoot and how often you shoot it. I like the response above regarding the 85mm 1.2 prime. I hear it's great for portraits. It's probably the next lens I'll purchase. Regarding the 1D III or 1Ds III...I've been there, too. I've owned the 1D3 for about a month now and absolutely love it. I purposely waited long enough for the focus issues to be resolved and made sure I didn't receive one with a blue dot. Call me paranoid. My conclusion about 1D3 and the 1Ds3 was that they're essentially the exact same camera except for full frame, higher resolution files and slower fps on the 1Ds3. In my opinion, the image quality from both is the same, but I'm sure some will debate this. So I ended up deciding that a 1.3 crop compared to full frame was virtually of no difference to me and that the 1D3's resolution was high enough for the largest photos that I would print. All this for virtually half the price of the 1Ds3 and getting much more of a versatile camera from the 1D3. Regarding your backup camera... I like the response above about having a backup that's the same as your primary. But if I were you, I'd first ask myself what's the primary reason for my backup. If its purpose is to serve virtually as a secondary "primary" camera to provide the convenience of having another lens on it to make it easy to switch between cameras during a shoot, then I would agree with having two of the same camera. The number of prints generated from both during a shoot will most likely have a similar ratio to each other. However, if the purpose of the backup is for the potential breakdown of the primary, I'd probably go with a 5D or 40D as a backup. Of course, you can somewhat have your cake and eat it too by going with both a 1Ds and 1D3 if your budget can absorb it, but I think it's overkill from a cost standpoint. Again, I believe it comes down to what purpose your backup is serving. Good luck with your final decision and your purchases. I remember how much fun it was going through this process over the past couple of years. Take your time, research and then buy. The only other thing I can share with you is that it is very easy to want to buy "everything" now simply because you have the cash for it now and it may be a while before a similar "windfall" comes along again. This creates the risk of overbuying now only to find yourself putting relatively brand new equipment that you've virtually never used up for sale at a fraction of your investment (although some pieces will keep their value better than others) shortly down the road. Define the need in your mind first, then match the purchase to fulfill that need. Hope this helps. Have fun!

Walt

I bought a used 1Dsll with 11k shots on it and never regretted it. There are plenty of bargains out there on used gear, you just have to look. Add a 85L, 35L, 50/1.4, 70-200/2.8 and backup body and you are good to go. A kit of Dynalite or Profoto monolites with a couple modifiers and there is little you'll need to shoot your jobs. I just saved you a couple grand and you can send me half...

Hi Joshua,

Rent the cameras and try them out, before you commit. If you don't have a pro shop near you that offers rentals, you can get them online.

Now, I'm a big fan of two matched cameras. I've shot that way for many years.

But, at the same time, I can appreciate that having two formats "leverages" your lens kit to do quite a bit more.Some "pairings" have been pretty easy to switch back and forth with, such as a 30D and a 5D because they handle so similarly.

The camera body you choose needs to be durable and reliable. Your really should have at least two, if you are going to be shooting weddings.

The lenses you choose are going to play a much bigger role in how your images look. Portraits and weddings, I'd want some fast primes in addition to the zooms. For 1.6X crop cameras that would be at least the 50/1.4 and 85/1.8. For full frame, I'd want the 85/1.8 and 135/2. Not sure which way I'd go with the 1.3X crop 1D series cameras. Yes, the 50/1.2L and 85/1.2L are fabulous lenses, but I think may be overkill for a new business. The f1.4 and f1.8 lenses are faster focusing and very good in their own right.

If 24mm isn't wide enough, pick up a used 20/2.8 for $300 or so.

Save your money on the UV filters if they are just for "protection"... Well that's my opinion, for what it's worth (I don't want to turn this into a "protection filter" debate). Hoya Pro (which I think are all multi-coated, but confirm that before buying) are probably nearly as good as B+W MRC or Heliopan SH-PMC anyway. I don't usually see the better, multi-coated Hoya Pros that much cheaper though. I carry one 77mm UV (B+W MRC) to use on my three zooms, if and when protection is needed. I also have 58mm and 72mm UVs, for use on other lenses in my kit. But, I'd never leave them on full time and so I only need a single one.

Spend the "protection filter" money on equipment insurance, instead. That's my vote!

I've now looked into buying at B&H, and although they are US I can actually save a good chunk of money even with the exchange to Canadian dollars. However, wouldn't warranties be an issue if I buy Canon USA stuff in Canada?

After reading all the replies here, I think I'm gonna go with matching 1D cameras. Since I would have both camera's loaded all the time, I think having matching bodies would benefit me more than having 2 different bodies, even if it means not going for the 1DS. I liked the idea of the 1D with a 5D, but everything I read keeps saying the 1D is so much better, so I feel I should just go for it.

I really like the idea of the 85 1.2, and if buying in the US I could also get the 50 1.2 with it. Are they really worth it? I mean, I know they are beautiful lenses, but would you really need both, or would one be sufficient?

There is a lot of commenting on getting fast primes for weddings. I've never shot a wedding where 2.8 wasn't fast enough, however receptions are a different story I guess. Too fast and the DOF is so small someone is out of focus all the time.

I've also noticed something about Canon's body pricing... two 40D's = one 5D, two 5D's = one 1D, two 1D = one 1DS.

Checked out your website. I have to be honest - at your level, spending $20k on gear isn't going to help you. You have some pretty pictures, to be sure, but most of your work is very static and not quite at the level where I can look at them and say "these were done by a pro." For example, your people pictures have nearly no emotion or chemistry, and what feeling is there appears forced and posed. As a client I would not be willing to hire you after seeing your portfolio (as it currently stands). More/better gear will not fix these problems.

Instead of blowing all that money on gear, consider investing some of it in classes or workshops. Maine Media Workshops has a very good reputation. Spending some money and time there will do more for your photography than a pair of 1D Mark III's ever will.

IMHO, of course.

BTW, since you seem to be seriously considering pro wedding photography - have a look at WPJA to get an idea of what's considered cutting edge these days. Note that most of these pictures could have been made with pretty much any functional camera and a half-decent lens. It's the skill of the photographer that really shines through, and that's the kind of photography I'd pay for.

Josh, for a 1D3 the 35 f1.4 prime is a better selection in my opinion - and is a superb lens. The 50 is a bit narrow for a 1.3 crop camera. Some people use a widish 35 and mid tele 85 as a pair of prime lenses. I would just get the cameras and zooms for now and play about with them.

Use the 24-70 for most things and get the shots in the bag before getting the arty shots with the primes. You may need the primes (and/or the IS feature of the 70-200) because you are not allowed to use flash in the ceremony. DOF is not a problem if you focus and shoot quickly (before the subject or you move) and you wish to concentrate the viewer's eyes on one subject - 2 or more subjects in-frame and you have to watch your DOF.

First, do you live in Calgary? (I do, for the record)

@ El Fang.

Considering the equipment he had, I'd say a lot of his work is just fine... In fact, some is very nice. And just because a certain style is considered "cutting edge" by self proclaimed experts in cutting edge photography, doesn't mean that it is automatically the style that everyone is looking for. HDR is considered 'cutting edge' by a lot of people... doesn't mean it's much more than current hype.

And considering he's been using a 18-55 IS / 70-200F4 combo on a slower crop-sensor camera, i have a hard time believing that owning some faster lenses and a more functional body arn't going to help him improve things.

Anyways Josh, if you truly have money to burn, then the 2x 1Dmk3 / 24-70 f2.8 / 70-200L f2.8 IS is probably a fantastic combination for you in my opinion. However, i might also suggest a portable off-camera lighting system as well (3 580EX's, modifiers, stands and a set of pocket wizards).

But that's me. I personally shoot with a 40D / 17-40L / 24-70L / 70-200F4 / 50 1.4 combination (with a backup body of course) and find it more than sufficient for most situations. I'd love to pick up a 1D3 and a 70-200L F2.8 IS, but that's for next year maybe... I'm at my limit this year for write-offs :)

>> It's best to have your backup, be the same camera. That's why I would suggest the 1D III X 2 route.

I agree but since this body was affected with AF problems I recommend that you buy it from a big store which has a good return policy.

If you choose not to go for FF than the 16-35/2.8 II is an absolute must but if you have FF (either 5D or 1Ds Mk something) than the 24-70/2.8 may be wide enough.

Happy shooting, Yakim.

El Fang... Ouch. But seriously I do appreciate your opinion. However, even though I am no where near where the majority of the people on this forum are in skills, I am none the less receiving regular work in my home town (Medicine Hat, not Calgary). And I do agree I have much to learn, and have looked into some ways to constructively improve my technique and my creativity. I've actually been mostly looking at New York Institute of Photography, as I can do it at my own pace and still learn quite a bit I'm sure. At the same time I do believe buying some better gear will allow me to technically achieve a better result. Yes, the photographer takes the picture not the gear, but you are still restricted by your equipment to a degree. Plus, spending that kind of money will really push me to make it worth it, pushing me to improve and to learn and to play. Just like a guy driving a corvette may not be a race car driver, but it still makes driving more fun. David: I had thought about more 580's to go with my current couple, but then for not a lot more money I could get into some alien bee lighting gear with some good modifiers, snoots and soft boxes and such. I actually was looking at the pro kit they have, the "Busy Bee Kit" It seems like a great starting point. I already have a pocket wizard kit in my shopping cart ;-). Just have to figure out how many receivers to get once I decide on the lighting.

Joshua,

1. Get two 1D bodies, I find it easier to have two primaries instead of a primary and a backup.

2. With this battery of glass, you can shoot in almost any situation. You'll find yourself using one lens more than the others. For me it's the 70-200, then the 16-35 and finally the 24-70.

3. I actually use Rodenstock HR's because I like the coating better, it's made in Japan instead of China or the Philippines, and the name is sounds cooler. But as long as it multi-coated, I bet they're all about the same.

4. If you're going the Alien Bee route, buy the ring flash and another light. The ABR800 ring flash will give you a lot of flexibility and the accessories are well priced. But if you go studio lighting you're going to need Pocket Wizards.

By the way great choices. I have the same gear. Great minds must think alike.

Here's my two cents.

First thing to do is get a business plan. Figure out your projected income and expenses. Make a marketing plan and a business operation plan. Perhaps even figure out how to get financing for your venture because it's always better to use someone else money to make money. Remember this is a business not a hobby.

Second thing - See above. I can't tell you how many people fail because they don't plan. But they are a great source of used equipment.

Buy used if you can. Let someone else take the depreciation. Get it from some rich hobbyist, they treat their equipment nice. Don't buy from pros. Pros abuse equipment.

Third. You don't need to go to school. Read some books on composition and look at photos you like (not your own). Then go out and take pictures. Photography is a skill. And you only get better by doing.

Considering the equipment he had

It's not the gear. A $5,000 camera isn't going to fire itself at the best moment, nor maneuver itself into the most creative angle. As well, WPJA isn't a bunch of "self proclaimed experts," they are simply very good at delivering what brides want these days (photojournalism), and that's why they have no problems charging $3000+ for their services. If you want to be successful, learn from those who are good at what you want to do. This is just common sense. Since he's not asking about digital backs for a medium format system, I'll assume (perhaps wrongly) that he's not really planning to shoot HDR formals. The gear he's looking at looks more like photojournalism-type to me, and photojournalism requires a very specific set of skills that are best honed by learning how to shoot news and sports. Denis Reggie, for example, considered the "father of wedding photojournalism" (and who charges 5 digits to cover a wedding) started out as a sports photographer. If the OP doesn't have any experience in that type of photography, his money is better spent on classes or workshops to make up for the skill deficit.

Yes, the photographer takes the picture not the gear, but you are still restricted by your equipment to a degree.

I have met very, very, very few photographers who are so good that equipment is their limiting factor. But then again - it's your money.

I've actually been mostly looking at New York Institute of Photography

The correspondence course that NYIP offers cannot be compared in any way, shape or form to Maine Workshops. You can literally learn all of NYIP's material for free by checking out a couple of books from your local library. But a chance to be taught by, work with, and have your portfolio critiqued by the likes of Magnum photographer Costa Manos or National Geographic photographer Ira Block - you can't get that from the library or a correspondence course.

Sigh, if only I had $20k to blow... the things I'd learn and experience. We're good at spending other people's money aren't we? LOL!

Joshua, I think it's the settings of the place, composition and not very interesting lighting that causes your picture to be less attractive. The subjects were too stiff. Maybe spend your $$ in lighting technique will be better.

John

Hi, Joshua. I'm from Lethbridge. 1. Don't hesitate to do mail order. I have bought tens of thousands of dollars worth of camera gear from B&H. I hear Adorama is good too, though I have no personal experience there. Expect to pay GST, minimal brokerage fees, no duty, and about $80 for air shipping (not ground). The Camera Store in Calgary is pretty good, but I have found other stores in Canada don't compete when it comes to top line equipment.

2. I have similar glass to yours. The old advice to invest in glass first was the best advice I listened to years ago. The next best choice I made was to then get serious about light. Yup, radiotriggers, etc. AB's are great. Light will make your photos better, more dramatic and original. A new body, well, it's another body, but don't expect the pictures to be any better.

3. Doesn't it strike you as an irony that you want to make money, but you are considering a really expensive camera with fairly low cost effectiveness? That may not be the wisest business choice, and the step to being a pro is all about business. I researched this topic, and finally jumped for the 5D last month. Sure, it will be "obselete" with Photokina in two weeks. But I'll still have an outstanding wedding camera, at an incredible discount. Don't think that your 1DIII/IIIs won't be 'outdated' in a couple of years. With it's very high shutter rating, expect to be using that model for many years of outdated commitment. Canon is scrambling to undo the gross mistake with autofocus on that line, and I think they will quickly move to another model. And resale value of that line might be a lot lower if, as we hope, newer models work better. See also Rob Galbraith's updated review of that line, here.

Backup is one of the critical issues that distinguishes the professional from the amateur, being ready for all kinds of eventualities. Therefore, two 5D's or 5DII's would be more wise than one really expensive camera. You can buy four 5D's for the cost of one 1DsMKIII, or two and a really good lighting set. Also, don't underestimate the extra cost of those huge 1DsIII files if you shoot at full resolution -- it may well mean having to buy a new, faster computer with lots of extra memory.

If the cosmetics of a pro body are important to you, then you could add the battery pack to make the camera look bigger and to allow you to more comfortably shoot vertical images. But remember that many professionals use the prosumer line of cameras because of cost effectiveness. They know that results talk. At my son's wedding last year, the pro used a Rebel-XT. I can't say I was impressed, but he got the job done well. Nobody in the wedding party noticed what he was using, except me. It's not about the tools, it's the results.

Dave

"If the cosmetics of a pro body are important to you, then you could add the battery pack to make the camera look bigger and to allow you to more comfortably shoot vertical images."

It's not the same! If you put a big lens and flash on the thing it struggles - and It's actually heavier. You don't get the durability or weather proof construction. You don't get dual slots so if one card fails you've had it. You don't get the speed of focus (yes the focusing has been fixed), more accurate metering, the 1D has 4 times the number of tones (14-bit colour gives 16384 against 4096 for the 5D), live view, sensor cleaning etc etc etc.

Many feel differently, but purely my personal opinion:

Both the battery pack extensions (such as you can get for the 5D) and the larger body format of the 1 series bodies are useless. Arguments that they "balance" a camera better when using a heavy lens defy physics, imho. As far as the extra shutter button and controls for portrait orientation, that's always been a head shaker for me as well: I've never had a major problem rotating a camera 90 degrees to take a shot.

If Canon came out with a 1 series body (rugged build, weatherproofed) with 5D proportions, I suspect it would be very popular. Personally, I would still stick with the more reasonably priced 5D series: I'm inclined to put the camera away at the first sign of rain, and never use it for driving nails.

As a few wise people have suggested, buy used! Get whatever great glass you feel fits your style, you will keep it for years and years. As for the box, yes weather sealing and all that jazz is nice but really right now you would be better off with a pair of used 5d's if you need to buy right now, otherwise wait until after Photokina for the release of new boxes and then still buy used gear that others are getting rid of because they want the newest toy just like you do today. For what you are doing look at Quantum Q flashes as well since they can double duty for you as on site and studio. OK yes you need to get the studio setup all set in advance without the modeling light but heck its a studio do the work. Doesn't sound like you do much studio work anyways so no worries. Now about your skills, as mentioned you are still on the way up. The suggestion to get some real training is very good. The suggestion that you can learn it all from a book is not. Yes, you can learn from books but it is not the same in anyway shape or form and takes many years of trial and error to get even close to the same level of accomplishment as having had a good workshop. If you are going into business then time and trial and error research are things you can't afford. Save the money on the bodies right now, go to a really good workshop or two even. They will pay off in the quality of your images in short time meaning that you are getting more work from the improvement in your portfolio. Also, have you set aside any money for software? I mean how are you going to market your images and deliver the goods, this is how you make money after all, in the delivery of the images and the residual income from print sales. I would certainly support the idea of taking a good shooting workshop where you will learn composition and lighting and then one business oriented workshop. Shooting and running a business are two completely different things, you can be the best shooter in the world, you know your not right now, and still be an utter failure at business and all you have done is blow $20k on a hobby. People on these forums love toys so take all the advise with a very large grain of salt. I would suggest starting a new thread and ask about starting your business and look for advice on that first before buying anything. Oh, and just to set aside this question, my advice comes to you as a Professor at one on the largest photo schools in the USA.

Good luck and best wishes to your success.

John

Well you have never shot a wedding for hours have you? The person who is posting wants to follow that profession and some of the features mentioned are a big benefit. Shooting for fun you would disagree - but please remember what the requirement was.

That was aimed at Mendel - John posted before my text appeared.

Stephen, no I've never shot a wedding. I appreciate the 1 series are built tougher, the 1.3 crop bodies have superior autofocus and fast frame rates, but I just don't get the point of the 2" or so body extension and extra shutter button, and extra weight it entails.

I'm going to have to amend my comments which may have been overly harsh (you'll notice in my posting history that harshness is a recurring theme with me). I'm not saying that your pictures are crap. What your pictures are showing me is your potential. Your choice now is whether to a) spend your money wisely and invest it in growing and developing that potential, which will benefit you for life, or b) throw it at a ton of gear that will probably be obsolete in 3 years.

As the wise professor said - don't forget to invest in business classes as well. A photography business is 90% accounting/marketing and 10% shooting. You're considering dumping $20,000 on 10% of your business before you've even hit the ground. That's not a wise decision, imho.

Mendel, the fact you hold the camera steady in the same way for portrait shots (rather than stick your arm in the air) makes sense to me. At slower shutter speeds that will definitely make a difference. If you have small hands then I can see a problem, but I find the 1D fits my hand like a glove. A heavier camera will steady you - especially if it's windy. ;-). And come on it's not that heavy!

With the 5D battery grip the extra battery is a must for weddings (you might not have time to switch batteries). The 1D has 1 huge battery that should last a whole wedding. I think it's something you have to try. I loved my 350D (Rebel) until I just wanted to 'try' a 30D - I bought it there and then! A much better feel and a much better viewfinder - ever tried using a Rebel in a low light situation? The 5D has similar build quality but better image quality. The 1D series has a feel and quality that is unmatched - but unless you try it you won't know. Ofcourse it's expensive compared to some models, I traded and paid the extra until I now have what I consider the best. You might not think it's worth the cash, and that's fine - that's your opinion. I just feel that this is the best camera I've ever used - and I'm very picky!

Joshua, I've read that a hundred or more new people enter the field of professional photography each and every day -- in the US alone! It's a really tough business. When I went pro, I expected a LOT more business than I actually landed. I can almost guarantee you that you won't find as much business as you think you will. So I agree whole-heartedly with those who have commented you should start out with the minimal setup that will put your new business in motion. I would highly recommend buying used equipment where possible. You don't need the latest and greatest to start out with. First see if you get enough business to proceed forward. And while I agree it would be nice to have a primary and backup camera of the same model, those of us with lower equipment budgets (which should include you, starting out) usually have a lesser camera for a backup -- usually the last one we semi-retired when moving up to the next model.

I would advocate for a 1D3 and a 5D as second body, considering your proposed lens selection. As for the 50 1.2, just check out the work of Emin Kuliyev here on PN and see what you can achieve with that lens. Having said that, I have a 50 1.8 and I very rarely use it wide open, more often it's between f 2.0 or 2.8. The 50 1.4 is also a good performer and might be well worth looking at... that's my 2 cents

The maximum aperture is more about viewfinder brightness, easy of manually focusing and build quality. Rarely will I shoot wide open because the focus is so shallow and easy to miss the correct point and the contrast falls greatly, especially when shooting moving subjects. What you get with a faster lens is an ease of use and sharper images even if you shoot on the wide end compared to the cheaper models. The 50/1.8 has a plastic lens mount but it's a bargain at roughly $75.