5D replacement has arrived at Photokina

If it's true, it's no big surprise. The only surprise would be if Canon didn't announce a new full frame DSLR to replace the EOS 5D at Photokina. That would be much bigger news than if they do!

The question is - how much will it be? If its too good it will be top dollar

If true, it would seem Santa will be very busy this Christmas... 40D, 50D, 5DMKII, new lenses... and thats only Canon.. ;-)

It will be what it will be. Canon have a very delicate balancing act to perform here by not making it so good and so cheap that they shoot themsleves in the foot and kill off sales of the 22MP 1Ds MkIII ($8000), but by making it good enough and cheap enough that it competes well with the 12 MP Nikon D700 ($3000). If they keep it down to 15MP, hold off on too many high end features and keep the price around $3000, they may be able to do that. If it's much more expensive they may lose sales to the D700. If it's much cheaper or has 20MP they may lose 1Ds MkIII sales. The 1D MkIII is probably safe unless they put >6fps in the 5D MkII.

If I was Canon what I'd do would be to drop the price on the 5D to $1999.99 and keep it as a basic "entry level" full frame camera, then have a 5D MkII/3D/7D at $2999.99 to go head to head with the D700, but with more pixels and a similar (but different) feature set.

It will be even more interesting to see if Sony actually bring their 24MP, in-body stabilized full frame DSLR to market this year as they said they intended to, and at what price point they put that! I believe that they have a press conference scheduled for Spetember 9th, so perhaps more information on the "A900" will be available after that.

I'm excited!. I hope they have 2 versions of the new 5D (Sr and Jr). I read somewhere about massive cutting price on the current 1D series since next year they'll release new releases.

"These same sources have been unwilling to specify the name that eventually will have this format SLR complete nor the exact date of launch.

In any case, bearing in mind that the emblematic Cologne fair opens its doors next September 23, the announcement will have to occur within a maximum of about three weeks."

Well I'm sold. That is certainly the most definite of the 1000's of various rumors we have seen over the past 3 years.

The specs have been up for a few days now. Pop Photo had a leak for a few hours and northlight is always hot on the trail of canon eos rumours:

http://www.canonrumors.com/index.php?entry=entry080827-094825

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_5d2_3d_7d.html

"5D Mark II Specs [CR3] UPDATE

Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 09:48 AM - Canon 5 Mark II 5D Mark II

This comes from a dude that seems to be right a lot lately.

* 21.1 MP 1.0x * DIGIC IV * ISO 100-6400 L:50 & H:12800 * 5 FPS * 3.2" High Resolution Screen (LCD) * 19 point AF * HDMI Out * Liveview * HD Movie Mode * Viewfinder: 100% Coverage * Full weather sealing * EF Lenses only

I will scour until I find a leak.... it's coming.

From Northlight

"The 50D sensor and image processing are a major step forward in what has been a multi-year strategy for Canon to take sensor technology to the limits of physics, simultaneously achieving higher ISOs, lower noise and higher dynamic range. Note Chuck Westall’s announcement that the 50D sensor has 1 to 1 and a half stops better noise than the 40D sensor despite the smaller pixels. Several core strategies have been pursued simultaneously for this:

* Reducing the micro lens gap to capture all the light hitting the sensor. This has been highlighted in the 40D, 1D III and 1Ds III sensors and the new 50D sensor now achieves effective 100% coverage. Only very minor improvements are expected from this point on (e.g. shaping the lenses towards the corners of the frame to capture angled light.

* Reducing the noise level of each pixel. Canon have made changes over several generations of sensors to achieve this, bringing the amplifiers closer to each pixel, changing micro-circuit configuration and lowering voltages so the sensor runs colder. Again the design of the 50D is a big step forward here from the 40D and 1D III etc. Canon have one more big jump lined up, with low voltage cold running CMOS designs to gain at least an additional stop in lower noise at higher ISOs or long exposures.

* Better digital noise reduction. These are the changes in DIGIC noise processing. First with the Chroma Noise reduction in DIGIC III and now with more advanced multi-level noise reduction options in DIGIC IV. Canon believe they have made most of the gains possible via processing algorithms but do still have some areas to develop. The next focus will be faster noise reduction processing so that it does not come at an impact on frame burst rates (look to the 1D3 replacement for example)

* Pixel binning for high ISOs. A new technology enabled by the complexity and processing power of DIGIC IV where they can bin 2, 4 or 8 pixels together at the raw level and average out the noise between them. This is seen by Canon as a key technology in balancing very high resolution sensors (in the 50mp range) with low noise at very high ISOs. Right now they are not pushing this too much with the 50D so as to not create confusion in the market (they see more potential for the technology as sensors get larger and in the pro-market).

* Increased image resolution – This is a newer strategy (most evident on the 450D where they have changed the anti-aliasing filter (thinner and closer etc) so as to achieve a crisper image per pixel without loosing the benefits of anti-aliasing filter on diagonal edges etc.. The 50D has the same technology. One further option for the future is for Canon to drop the anti aliasing physical filter and do it in a future DIGIC generation where there can be smarter allocation of colour values than the blurring achieved by a light based filter.

* Increased raw bit depth for improved dynamic range. Here Canon have made the jump to 14 bit and will move to 16 bit in their future sensor technology generations. Canon see the main usage of extra bit depth as providing the dynamic range to translate the sensor image into a printable or viewable image with a higher dynamic range. In other words mapping the 14 or 16 bits into an 8 bit viewable or printable image that mimics the dynamic range in the scene.

* Dynamic range preservation options – Canon are putting a lot of focus into how to provide the photographer with the best options for preserving the dynamic range of the original image in both a RAW file and the 8 bit JPEG. The highlight tone preservation option on the 40D, 1D III etc was the first step. The new 'automatic brightness' options in the 50D are another, where they try and optimise the brightness of various parts of the image to reduce the dullness from shadows. Canon are planning much more in this area, down to the equivalent of varying the ISO level across the different parts of the sensor when the image is taken (easier in live view mode of course)."

If it has 21.1 MP, ISO 100-6400 L:50 & H:12800, 5 FPS, weathersealing. lower noise and a high resolution LCD, Canon might have to start giving away a free 1Ds MkIII as a premium with every 5D Mk II purchased.

Why spend $8000 when you can get for (presumably?) around $3000 a camera with the same resolution, weathersealing, frame rate, a wider ISO range (by two stops) and lower noise, a higher resolution LCD and the ability to shoot movies ?

Why would you spend $5000 more for a 1D MkIII? Just so you could hammer nails in with it (assuming it has heavier duty construction)?

It seems to make no sense unless Canon are just giving up on the 1Ds MkIII. The specs sound more like a 1Ds MkIIIn or a 1Ds MkIV than a 5D MkII.

I suspect that many "rumor" pages (but not mine!) are simply there to attract as much attention as possible, publishing anything they hear without confirmation. In fact the more outrageous the rumor, the more attention it gets, the more traffic the site gets, the higher the page is listed by Google and the more advertising revenue the pages earn. I guess I should get on it and report some rumors that the 5D will also have stereo sound, built in GPS, built in WiFi and will cost under $2500. I could quote some "anonymous sources" of course, just to add to the credibility.

Well 1D Mk III has more AF points Bob :-). That what causes $5,000 more *chuckle*.

I'd say that's not impossible. Thanks about the Nikon's way to distribute the D3 and D700, They almost have the same specification. The explaination is that the successor of 1ds mark III is on its way.

If the specs flash out as fact I'd guess the days of canon selling $8,000 top of line full frame are over. Nikon's D3 can be bought from B&H for $4500. D700 $3,000. Nikons next full frame D3X due out soon MAY just be all the competetion canon's needed to offer consumers even more for less coin. I mean with the two current nikon full frames priced together for less one highend canon full frame one has to wonder if 5D mark II is a leap or a step foward. Photokina, starts on what?, 9-23-08, we don't have much longer to wait and see.

Me, I'm happy I bought two old tech 5D for average price $1,900 a piece, which broke the mythical $2,000 barrier. Low tech full frame is fine by me, unless 5D MarkII launches at less than 2K, I'm satisfied with what I've got right now.

Lindy

I predict 5D Mark II to be around $2K.

Well if MarkII is 2K then I'll add one and then I'm done buying kit this year. The wife has liberated me of my second 5D and I'd still like a eos full frame backup incase of failures. Personally if it has the HD video like nikon's new D90 it makes more sense at 3K. We'll all know in 3 weeks or less if its ripe for pick'n or if another year passes with 5D in current lineup.

By the way I registered my two 5D a couple days ago to get all the current specials on support and parts and labor. That registration perk package via canonusa website for usa owners of 5D expires Aug31st so clock is ticking...

When I say around $2K it could mean $2,999.99 hehehehehe

I hope the rumors are true, as my 5D is on its last leg, and I have been hesitant to buy a new 5D for $2300, which is much too close to the D700's $2700 (there's a legitimate nikon authorized dealer on ebay selling them at that price + shipping).

I don't need 21MP, but I do need ISO6400. I hope it is as clean or cleaner than the Nikon D700 at high ISO.

I would not discount the possibility of the 5D replacement being superficially close in spec to the current 1Ds MkIII. With the 50D, Canon has shown its hand in terms of what their current technology is capable of. Surprisingly (given Canon's recent slow pace of technological progress), we know there is now very substantial headroom in terms of ISO and MP at least. We could see a MkIV in the not too distant future which would put a 21MP 5DMkII (and anything else for that matter) well and truly in the shade... Nikon had better be planning on a 30+ MP flagship...

I'd be very surprised if Canon made the 5D upgrade close to the EOS 1Ds MkIII. Why should they kill off their flagship camera?

I really don't think there's much demand for a 50MP DSLR, though I know Canon have talked about it. I'd have thought that if they had a 50MP 1Ds MkIV in the works, they'd have released it BEFORE a 20+MP 5D upgrade, not after.

It will be interesting to see how the 50D does since it has the same pixel density as a 38MP full frame sensor. The 40D has the same pixel density as a 25MP full frame sensor. An analysis of the 40D/50D images in terms of noise and resolution will tell us what a 40 MP full frame DSLR might look like and how good the lens needs to be to see a significant difference in the image.

For those not printing at 20x30" and up I suspect the difference will be very small. For those who view their images at 100% magnification on a computer monitor, the difference may be somewhat larger

From what I read, canon are going bigger than 35mm into MF and that will be flagship, the new 5d maybe the new FF (35mm) top model :)

Hi Bob,

It happened that I read your article (http://photo.net/oped/bobatkins/full_frame.html) right before I jumped into this post. (I belong to those who have APS-C but are trying to realize the benefits of FF). It seems that your predictions in 2004 work quite well at this moment. Do you think that it is the time of a big shift (frame size wise) for this industry?

Vincent

Not sure how accurate this site is `Silobreaker` this piece on it today

`In the wake of May's comes a leaked spec sheet and release date for the slightly pricey DSLR. Citing an all-but-airtight '105% accuracy' rating, the poster says a September 8 release date is likely for the Mk II with an MSRP of $2,400. It's expensive, yes, but comparatively speaking it's a bit less than the higher quality, more expensive Nikon D700`

"I would not discount the possibility of the 5D replacement being superficially close in spec to the current 1Ds MkIII."

I would. Just as the 5D was 12MP vs. the 1Ds2's 16MP, the 5DII is far more likely to be 15 to 18MP.

It'd be nice if they split the 5D into an under-US$2,000 2.5 fps no weathersealing camera with the current AF and metering and viewfinder and an over-SU$3,000 5 fps, weathersealed camera with a few of the other of the D700's eggregious bells and whistles. But both with 18MP and DIGIC 4.

Evidently I missed a memo somewhere along the way, when did Canon become a plural? Are Canon a borg?

I did a quick search and I see this has been discussed before... it just sounds very odd. Those Canon are strange. And loose too, I've heard.

Oh, and if the 5D II is $2k I will be utterly astonished. I'm betting $3k. And I think it unlikely they will let it compete too well with the 1D III.

Evidently I missed a memo somewhere along the way, when did Canon become a plural? Are Canon a borg?

I've often wondered the same thing. Ford have a better idea.

"Thanks about the Nikon's way to distribute the D3 and D700, They almost have the same specification. "

They have almost the same price. Take a $3000 D700, add in the vertical grip, the larger D3 EN-EL4e battery, and the charger for that battery ($230 for the charger, what is with Nikon) and you're within $500 of the same price. Seems reasonable for a 100% viewfinder, 9 fps, and dual CF slots. That dual CF thing makes me feel so safe when I use the D3, it's worth the $500 to me all by itself.

Now, put that together with people's expectation that a 5D II is going to outspec a D700, yet be cheaper, while a 1Ds III is pretty even with a D3, yet is much more expensive.

On the plural issue. Corporations are indeed singular, they are corporate "entities". Ford is going to do this, Nikon did that. Canon is going to do something else. Canon, being a Romanization of Kwanon, which is in turn a Japanese interpretation of Quan Yin, a Bodhisattva, is even more singular than the typical corporation.

The confusion comes because the Canon corporation is often confused with the weapon the "Cannon", and that is singular and plural: Cannon are firing. I think this has something to do with the way that the Canon lenses are painted gun metal gray, similar to the guns of modern warships.

We will have to wait and see. Historically, Nikon always had semi-pro SLRs that were "baby" versions of their flagship one. Witness the F5 vs. F100, for instance. And now the D3 vs. D700.

On the other hand, Canon always had a dumbed-down version for their semi-pro cameras: EOS 1N vs. EOS 5 is just one example. The split between categories has always beem more marked than with Nikon.

If Canon releases a 5D replacement with improved weather sealing, meaning that it does not cut down (much) on construction quality relative to the 1 series, then I might buy my first DSLR. Otherwise, I will keep shooting my trusty EOS 1V. It would be nice to have a 5D replacement built to the same standards as the Nikon D700, to sustain the rough usage I normally submit my cameras to.

If I hadn't already a big investment in L lenses, I would buy Nikon today.

David - "It'd be nice if they split the 5D into an under-US$2,000 2.5 fps no weathersealing camera with the current AF and metering and viewfinder and an over-SU$3,000 5 fps, weathersealed camera with a few of the other of the D700's eggregious bells and whistles."

It would also make some sense. Before the 5D was launched, no one ever said they wanted a 5D. The word all over the Canon forums here and at dpReview was "when is the 3D coming out", "here are the latest 3D rumors". I think the world was surprised (and very disappointed) that instead of a "3", Canon gave us something labeled "5", but with the soul of a "7". The most unbalanced "split" in the history of DSLRs, they put a $300 body together with $3300 in electronics, to make a $3300 DSLR. No other camera ever had a 1:10 ratio of body to electronics before. And no other one ever showed such an ability to sit on dealer's shelves and gather dust, despite record breaking price reductions and incentive packages. At the same time, Nikon was launching cameras like D200 (near 50:50 split between body and electronics) or D2X (at most 1:2), and taking the DSLR sales lead away from Canon.

So, time to take the 5D concept, wrap it up in newspaper, and bury it out in the back yard next to the Canon PHOTURA.

I think the 3D is needed (and a substantial reduction in the artificial high price of the 1Ds III). Maybe the 7D, too, if they can figure out how to pull off a cheap full frame. But even then, they've got to address that 1:10 split.

I'm still betting against any of this, 3D, 5D II, or 7D, appearing at Photokina. Even before D90, I wasn't expecting anything before PMA. And, since 5D just launched, it wouldn't surprise me if Canon is dragging the 3D back to the garage to see if they can give it movie mode, even if that will mean pushing it all the way back to fall of 2009,

Paulo Bizarro - "Historically, Nikon always had semi-pro SLRs that were "baby" versions of their flagship one. Witness the F5 vs. F100, for instance. And now the D3 vs. D700."

Not "always", and not even "mostly". No "baby" F1, F2, F3, F4, or F6. F5 got F100. No baby D1, and no baby D1X/D1H. D2X/H got D200. D3 got D700. So, all in all, 3 of 10 flagships got a "baby" version. As I said, not "always", and not even "mostly".

"On the other hand, Canon always had a dumbed-down version for their semi-pro cameras: EOS 1N vs. EOS 5 is just one example. The split between categories has always beem more marked than with Nikon."

Again, I debate your "always". EOS 1v vs EOS 3 wasn't all that much more "marked" than with Nikon F5 vs. F100. Nor was 1D to 1Ds, 1D II to 1Ds II, or 1D III to 1Ds III.

5D didn't really fit in the lineup anywhere. Let's see if Canon has learned that lesson...

I'm pretty new here and I don't know the history... but, maybe people weren't asking for a model number 5D, but they were sure asking for a less expensive full-frame model. The 5D was, for a good long while, the cheapest one available.

Did they really sell poorly? I know I'm not the only one in this forum who has one. I've seen quite a few other 5D folks here.

Also, if it's such a cheap body, why does it weigh so much? For years I shot with a Minolta X-700, and it survived many a beating and kept on going, and weights much less than a 5D does. A lot smaller, too. I have yet to figure out why the 5D is so large and heavy. What the hell is in there?

Just asking... I'm new to DSLRs...

So, time to take the 5D concept, wrap it up in newspaper, and bury it out in the back yard next to the Canon PHOTURA. . . . 5D didn't really fit in the lineup anywhere. Let's see if Canon has learned that lesson...

What lesson is it that Canon should have learned? Don't produce a reasonably-affordable, popular full-frame camera with a very-long (for digital cameras) production run?

It's all speculation at this point. But regardless of everything... I'll be on the waiting list. If it truly ends up being a 21mp+ powerhouse for $3000 I'll be booking my flight to go break into the factory and leave the cash in their mailbox ;) I was getting worried about canon for a bit there, but with the release of the 50D and the technology jump, I know i'm in good hands. Thanks for not letting us down canon... (now DON'T let us down!)

Why do you think Canon would be scared of killing off the 1Ds Mk III? The original 5d was pretty close to the MK II spec wise. The 1Ds Mk IV is surely right around the corner (less then a year or two at least.) Anyone who would have dropped $8K on the 1Ds III would have done so already, so it makes sense to bump that down in price to get ready for the (50MP ?) Mk IV which was hinted at in that quoted text above.

What I don't understand is, if this newer sensor technology (as in the 50D) is right at the edges of the physical resolution limit, shouldn't the 5d mk II have even higher resolution than the 1Ds Mk III? 15 * 1.6 = 24 right? I guess they didn't want to push the envelope too much, or perhaps they wanted to lower noise.

I was starting to get worried that Canon was losing ground to Nikon, but after seeing the 50Ds specs and these supposed specs I'm glad I didn't jump ship!

I think the 5D was/is by far the best value for a full framed camera. Canon nailed the market with this camera. I look forward to seeing the updated version and I agree with everything Bob Atkins says. Mainly regarding a 20 megapixel weather sealed camera. I can't see this happening under $5000. Therefore I would think the sensor may be around 16 megapixels and it won't have weather seals. I do hope that the camera will have a 2 card setup, in case of card failure. It doesn't make sense that Canon would offer a $2000 to $3000 full framed 20 megapixel camera. The 1Ds Mark 3 sales will be dead.

Another thought, just for the sake of writing is Nikon rumors are plans of a new release 22 to 24 megapixel camera to battle against the 1DS Mark 3 and I bet it won't cost $2000 to $3000! Nikon still hasn't been able to make a sensor equal to even the 1DS mark 2, although great credit and respect needs to be givin to Nikon regarding a great low light camera able to produce fine images at ISO 6400.

I think the Canon EOS 5DII or 7D will be 16 to 18 MP max.Since the 1Ds MkII is no longer available, they will bridge the gap with it.I think it may cost around U$ 3000.00

It had to happen some day soon and we knew that. Just the suspense was a nail biter. Got my credit card warmed up.

Canon has a history of releasing DSLRs which seem to tread on the toes of their bigger brothers at least in terms of MP eg 300D/10D, 400D/450D/20D/30D, now 50D/5D. I don't see why it shouldn't happen again. Presumably Canon is more concerned about bettering Nikon's offerings than upsetting its own customers. Anyway, I think people are well used to the concept of rapid obsolescence by now.

I agree that the never-ending MP race is more about marketing than real advances in printing quality but that does not mean we're nearing the end by any means. The march towards ever higher pixel counts will continue for some time yet, as will the inexorable shift to larger sensors. Forum posters can say what they like about being happy with xx MP, x.x crop etc, but the bottom line is that paying customers' perceptions determine how the market behaves - and clearly most paying customers do not post on these forums!

BTW, I do regard the ISO race as being of real value to at least some photographers, myself included.

Jamie, another thread had the equivalent full frame no of pixels from a scaled up 50D sensor at 38.4MP. 1.6x1.6x15 gets the final value. I would have expected better noise/higher ISO than the 50D capability if the 5DII was 'only' 16MP or so, thus the photosites having about twice the area to those on the 50D.

A personal opinion, having handled the D700 briefly the other day (I was sure the sales guy was going to make me wear cotton gloves just to touch it) is that Canon have had the FF DSLR market reasonably to themselves until now, and have been able to afford the luxury of the marketing department calling the shots in terms of price point vs features vs pixels. That era may be gone from now on in, and Canon will simply have to compete as best they can. That's got to be good for the rest of us.

Perhaps this is just engineer-speak, but I would have expected Canon inc. to be happier with the 1 series to be losing sales to a canon DSLR than the company to be losing market share to Nikon. All those 1 & 5 series camers will be using canon fit lenses at least, and most of them will have a canon branded lens, flash etc.

All the best

Damian

5d is easily the most popular studio and non threatening environment body with pro and semi pro's in my area, Surf shooters go for the bricks. Dare i say the weathersealing sells a lot of cameras. (?)

As canon users we have the comfort of knowing canon has the resources and scale to answer Nikon increased competition although there may be small wait for their response. Sam I absolutely agree with you that weather sealing is probably the clincher for a lot of serious photographers, how much would it cost to add that to a camera? Wouldn't R&D be virtually immaterial compared to say lower noise sensor etc? So is it a marketing decision to leave it out?

I think , It's gonna be a 16 megapixels, not 21mp, cause it is highly unlikely. But I'm not sure, Just found this link, (If it's not already found) hyperlink

But wouldn't be surprising to see the DIGIC III rather than DIGIC IV? My guess is that everyone's guessing - just the way Canon like it! ;-) We'll just have to wait - sigh!

Ben: I could imagine that weather sealing has a higher per camera cost while lower noise has a higher research cost.

The "next" 5D notwithstanding (I reckon it will NOT be a $3000 1Ds Mk. III...), I'm bummed that there are no leaks about new lenses... Apparently, at least per "pro shooters rumor mill", Canon have (hey, plural is 100% correct in this case <--- note to Am Eng "purists") some nice stuff in the pike, so where is it, eh?

I passed on buying a 24-70mm 2.8L in feb 2008 when i had a link to B&H for $984 brand new. Why'd I pass? I read a rumor canon had a 24-70mm 2.8 L IS in their quiet pipeline.

I'd be eager to add 24-70 IS seeing now how sweet the 70-200mm 2.8 IS is and I hope that one rumor if no other rumor fleshes out as fact.

Lindy

Ditto on the new lenses, I'd like to see more wide primes. There are currently no wide primes in the $500-$1,000 range: Surely something can be made that fits there. Maybe 24mm f/2?

I'm with Lindy on the prospect of an announcement of a Canon 24-70mm 2.8 L IS lens. That would quickly become my walk-about lens--and a very serious one at that. The non-IS 24-70 2.8 is a phenomenal lens, but I always use it on a tripod, not because I have to, but because I love to see that high res image pop onto my screen.

Frankly, if the Canon bodies get any better, more and more people are going to have to upgrade to the sharpest possible lenses to be able to see the difference. Looking through the 24-70 2.8 is a great place to be able to see it if you shoot full-frame.

--Lannie

Somehow I don't think there will be a 24-70/2.8 IS soon (although I would like to be wrong on this one) but there was at least one short range, but very fast, L zoom rumored in additon to the 18-200 glass. We'll know soon enough :-)))

I wouldn't be surprised if Canon released a 24-70 2.8 IS... Not that I'd buy it, I already have the regular 24-70L that I think is pretty much the cat's ass in lenses... But I think it would be a welcome addition... I personally don't think IS is a big issue on lenses sorter than 70mm... but i can certainly see the benefit.

On that note, As long as the next 5D iteration has more than 15mp, more than 4.5fps, Similar or better AF than the current 40D, and better noise control than the regular 5D at ISO 1600+...... I'll be buying it as soon as it's available. Otherwise, i'll be considering ole Nikon.

Personally I think that Canon realizes this is the general consensus of the semi-pro and advanced amateur community and I highly doubt it will be anything less than a 5fps, 21mp, 19AF point ISO 6400 weather sealed camera. Why wouldn't they supercede the 1DsMKIII anyways? It's not as if there won't be a 1DsMkIV or similar. The Nikon D700 already rivals some of the main selling points of the 1DsMk3 anyways in my opinion... relative difference in megapixels notwithstanding.

Keep the discussion civil and on topic please.

Anybody understand Spanish ?

(link)

translation...but it's not easily understood

(link)

If the article is correct the 5D Mark II will have 21 MP.

I speak Spanish.

The information in John G's link is almost the same already given by Lindy Stone. Actually I would say that article could by an automated translation, as there is some information not clear even in Spanish, or perhaps it's from a country which uses different words than we do here in Mexico.

Alan Bryant - "Did they really sell poorly? I know I'm not the only one in this forum who has one."

Did you buy it at the original $3500 price, or something closer to the latest $1900 price? It indeed sold poorly when it launched, and continues to sell poorly even today.

Mike Dixon - "What lesson is it that Canon should have learned? Don't produce a reasonably-affordable, popular full-frame camera with a very-long (for digital cameras) production run?"

What does a "popular" camera have to do with the 5D? It never sold well. No matter what Canon did with the price, what they bundled, there have been stacks of them in dealer's stockrooms. "very-long" production run just means they haven't bothered to revise or replace it. They may be letting the niche die. And the "production run" may have ended 6 months ago, and they're just moving old stock. "Barely" moving.

Why is it relevant when I bought mine? Read my other posts if you want to know.

Two questions then, (1) Where did you get your sales figures? Are they public or are you guessing? And, (2) Poorly as compared to what? No doubt sales were dismal compared to the Rebels, but how are they compared to the 1 series?

I reckon a straw poll in this forum would turn up pretty impressive sales numbers.

Jamie Bushley - What I don't understand is, if this newer sensor technology (as in the 50D) is right at the edges of the physical resolution limit.

No one has even come near the "physical resolution limit", yet. Given good enough lenses, that limit depends on diffraction, and diffraction depends only on lens aperture. We're about to get into the interaction between two of the "deadly tions" (pronounced "deadly shuns" (no, not you Shun)), "diffraction" and "resolution".

Here's a kind of neat tutorial

I'll work one size completely through, as an example, then present a quick little table. If you find the discussion boring, scroll right to the table...

A full frame, 7.5mp (yes, there's a reason for that silly number) camera has a sensor of 3354x2236 pixels. It's 36x24mm. That's 36,000x24,000 microns, making each pixel 36,000/3354 = 10.7 microns. It's a Bayer pattern sensor, the distance between two pixels of the same color is twice that, or 21.4 microns. That's the smallest detail it can resolve. So, we know "resolution".

"Diffraction" causes a perfectly focused point on the subject to expand to a fuzzy edged disc (called an "Airy disc") at the sensor. The radius of this disc is 1.22 lambda * f stop. Lambda is the wavelength of light, and we normally use a green light wavelength of around 560nm (the human visual peak) for discussion. So, looking at f16, and converting 560nm to 0.560 microns, 1.22 * 0.560 microns * 16 = 21.8. Now we know "diffraction".

And we know that 21.4 is so close to 21.8 that if we moved up or down even 1/6 of a stop, we'd be much farther off.

For full frame cameras, then, if you stop down to f16, there is absolutely no difference between a 7.5mp camera, a 12mp camera, a 21mp camera, and a 1000mp camera. The 1000mp will just resolve the diffraction limited blur in greater non-detail. In macrophotography or microscopy, this is called "empty magnification.
So, without further ado...

Wow, nice explanation and thanks for the table!

You are quite welcome. Glad you enjoyed...

It will be what it will be.

I am that I am. :-)

I wouldn't be surprised if Canon released a 24-70 2.8 IS

Me too. :-)

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Coming into this one a bit late but when I see all the posts about there being no way that Canon would make it nearly the same as the mark 3 1Ds all i can say is that on paper at least the 50D beats out the 1D Mk III on everything but sensor size and build. From people that have had it in their hands it focuses as fast if not faster... and the 15 MP is actually a little more than 10 on a 1.3 so I don't see why canon would not...

For every 1 1Ds3 that Canon sells they will sell 20 5 series cameras with little or no new R/D costs - thus the camera is far more profitable and it only makes sense to try and knock nikon off its current perch...

There is 1 big reason why Canon will compete with the 1Ds3: Nikon is soon going to release a D3x or whatever, based on the 24MP Sony sensor (and they will probably do so 1 day after the 5D replacement release, given recent history).

So at that point, Canon needs to release their answer to this body - as no way do I see them sitting back and handing over the resolution edge to Nikon so meekly. So in their product blueprints, they have a 1Ds4 in the works already.

Now what does reduce the business equation when it comes to releasing a 21MP 5D replacement with the ISO 6400/12800 options: PROS: Keeps the FF bodies one big leap ahead of all of Nikon's bodies, and prevents haemmorraging CONS: Cannibalize sales of the 1Ds3, which are already getting munched on by both the D3 and the D700 - this is not as bad as it may seem, because you can bet they'll sell more than 1 5D2 for every 1Ds3 they dont sell

From an economics point of view, no doubt they'd prefer not to cannibalize, but NOT competing with Nikon for fear of internal cannibalization is very poor business sense - they'd rather have people stay in the Canon fold than defect over.

And make no mistakes - a $3000, 21MP FF body is a swift and decisive kick in the nuts to both the D3 and the D700, and will not only staunch the defection but reverse the tide (I am sure the plan is for the 1Ds4 to do to the 24MP Nikon what the 21MP 5D2 will do to the D3/D700).

Lastly, from a corporate point of view, Canon HAS to respond with something intimidating and earth-shattering, which demonstrates what they are capable of... they have lost a lot of face in the past season, and will want to gain it back. I fully expect them to do their best to achieve this.

Vandit

PS: To argue that the 5D is a poor seller is simply laughable. You dont launch a product and give it a 3-year lifespan if it doesnt sell. It flies in the face of all business logic. The 5D was a revolutionary camera when it was launched and even today, 3 years later, it matches the latest 12MP FF cameras in IQ at up to ISO 400. There really isnt a whole lot more to say here.

There is a lot of speculation on the new 5d and it certainly is actually fun to see people take guesses (at least now that there is only a few weeks left to find out how we all did).

What is really annoying me is I now find myself in disagreement with Bob Atkins. For those of you who have not read Bob's stuff, the guy is unbelievably helpful. He's typically dead on. In general, he is a crapload more useful than anything I ever post.

However, a 15MP 5D replacement seems kind of stupid given what Sony is to announce in a few days and what Nikon has already announced. Furthermore, extrapolating the 50D (15.1MP APC (1.6x crop of 35mm)) sensor to full frame (35mm equiv) you end up with a 24.16 MP sensor using the same technology. Magically this matches what Sony is likely to announce.

I have no idea who Canon fears but if the technology is there and they don't release now it is a mistake. Nikon has made up huge ground and Sony has a good technology (from Minolta) in camera body based vibration reduction. If Canon makes a decision to protect the current 1 series they will drive folks to the new Sony line and Nikon.

Ideally they will be able to do something like: "here is the new 24MP 5D and we have some incredible things happening immediately in the 1 series ..."

I once moved all my stuff from Nikon (FM-2 user) to Canon (1V). I loved my Nikon stuff and fought with myself for a long time before making the move. However, using a long lens without autofocus and comparing that to using a friend's EOS 3 was a game changer. Sure I was very late to the move but the example is still relevant. Canon needs a game changer again. Since I bought my 1D mk ii it certainly feels like Canon has just made a series of baby steps designed to only barely keep their lead.

I would do what I could now to keep Sony from being successful here.

>Furthermore, extrapolating the 50D (15.1MP APC (1.6x crop of 35mm)) sensor to full frame (35mm equiv) you end up with a 24.16 MP sensor using the same technology.

No, you end up with an 15MP*1.6*1.6=38.4MP sensor. That is if it has 24MP the single pixel is still larger than in the 50D.

Ick...you're right. I screwed that up.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1669577&postcount=15 has an interesting table.

Assuming the math is done correctly there (unlike my calculations) the 450D has the finest pixel count of the current releases. While this would not necessarily mean it takes the best pictures in the space it is able to shoot, it would again point to room where Canon could increase the capabilities of the 1 series.

Using the link above and 15.1MP on 328.56 mm^2 gives a density on the 50D of 45,958 pixels/mm^2...about double what the 1Ds mk iii currently has. Clearly there is technology I don't understand well in what it takes Canon to move these capabilities to larger sensors but I imagine there is pressure to improve the 1 series now as well. Although there are huge differences in the bodies, I image a 1Ds mk iii owner wouldn't want to be told that within the crop of the 50D the 50D has nearly twice the resolution of the 1Ds mk iii and better low light capabilities.

Fine my post might be pretty dumb but on the other hand there is no reason to avoid doing a comparison test. Certainly there are huge issues in blowing up the photo to match the full frame but I also wonder if as the resolutions continue to increase in the image sensors we may also start to discover more of the flaws in the edges of our lenses (which the 1.6 crop may avoid).

Also, in an equally silly point, it is possible that at a minimum the macro crowd may actually be able to say that the cheaper camera is better assuming they want 1 to 1 and have an object that is less than 35mm sized. Okay, not the most typical of shots but in that rare example would the 50D be nearly twice as good for the shot as the 1Ds mk iii? (somewhere Stewart Smalley approves).

a $3000, 21MP FF body is a swift and decisive kick in the nuts to both the D3 and the D700, and will not only staunch the defection but reverse the tid

Why do you think that more pixels would bring in new customers when resolution was never a problem with the original 5D?

Latest translation from a Chinese website... so it's called Canon 7D.

Perhaps this was we last time before the EOS5D successor type official issue about its report, today along with the Canon Japan issued officially EOS the 5D successor type the advance notification chart announced that guess has pushed to the high tide the people to Canon EOS5D the successor type EOS7D. Is honored very much tells everybody, Evolife through the special channel already learned that EOS7D soon in the domestic announcement official selling price is 18999 Yuan, according to the former convention, the Canon EOS7D selling price should about 16000 Yuan. We have not been able to confirm at present about the EOS7D more fuselage parameter information, between the work place spreads many are as follows, believed that the final answer soon makes known. Picture element: 21 MP photosensitiveness: ISO50-12800 LCD size: 3.2 inches focuses: 19 : FPS: 5/second Live View: Has (including animation photography function) Label: EOS7D Canon

720P, 1080P other?

Photokina is the 23rd to 28th in Koln. That would put the announcement 2 weeks or less. I hope they quote me in it:

"In respect to Norm's wishes here is our latest achievement. We anticipate that it will meet his needs as he isn't that good a photographer but we appreciate his money none-the-less."

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=29269447

Here is a translation (I hope it's good :)) : * 24 Megapixel 24X36 CMOS sensor * New battery, new grip * DIGIC IV processor * Magnesium alloy body * Live view * Video Mode * Integrated Cleaning System * Full compatibility with Canon EF and EX-series Speedlites * Price : 2600€ * Official announcement : 17/09/2008

* More specs... soon

ISO 25000 woo hooo

Update specs:

EOS-Numerical exclusiveness! New Canon EOS 5D MKII Characteristics * Sensor CMOS 24X36 24 MP * 25600 ISO * New battery with recognition of l' autonomy * new grip BG-E 6 * Processor DIGIC IV * Magnesium alloy case * Live view * Video mode * System of integrated cleaning * Compatible objectives EF lenses and Speedlite EX The continuation of the characteristics….soon! Official announcement of Canon 17/09/08