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Ontario to photographer: No nude shots of students

Wigwam Jones , Mar 17, 2007; 10:25 a.m.

When I read this news story, my first thought was "Oh no, another pervert photographer caught taking nudes in a locker room with a hidden camera" or something of that nature.

But then, as I read the story, it because clear that the girls photographed had been voluntarily photographed in the nude at the photographer's studio. So I thought to myself, "Oh, so they were underage. Bummer, the photographer should have checked."

Then I read that both young ladies (the high school students) were 18 years old. I don't know what the law regarding the ability to enter into a binding contract is in Canada, but in the US, it's 18. So for this purpose, in the US, those kids would be adults and fully capable of agreeing to pose nude. In fact, there are dirty magazines that are devoted to only raunchy photographs of 18-year-olds.

So I wasn't sure what the whole story was about. Turns out, the (female) photographer did nothing illegal, although it was mentioned that had the two girls been under 18, it would have been a felony. Yes, I took money out of the bank yesterday. Had I done it with a gun in my hand, it would have been robbery. The point being what? The writer wished it was a felony? The writer felt it important that we know it could have been a felony but for want of a birthday?

The photographer took nude photos of two 18-year-old girls who were both still high school students (ah, that's the thing), carefully checked their ID, both signed contracts of their own free will, and their photos ended up on a website that the government is apparently monitoring, according to the story.

So where was the crime?

Well, no crime, apparently.

But Ontario is not going to allow it anyway. Funny, I usually envy Canada their laid back, less puritan attitudes towards sex, nudity, and so on, compared to the US. Apparently, this is not always the case.

In any case, here is the story and the link to it.

(link)

***QUOTE***

Ontario to photographer: No nude shots of students

James Goodman Staff writer

(March 17, 2007) ? VICTOR ? An Ontario County woman who photographed at least 13 women ? including two Victor high school students ? for an adult Web site has agreed not to take any more photos of high school students.

"She understands that photographing high school students is not in their best interests," said Ontario County Sheriff Philip Povero.

The photographer made the commitment after being interviewed by sheriff's deputies on Friday. No criminal charges were filed.

All of the women photographed were 18 or older, including the two women who at the time were seniors at Victor Senior High School, Povero said.

Most of those photographed posed topless and voluntarily entered into a contract with the photographer, who required proof that they were 18, Povero said. The women were paid for their modeling and gave exclusive rights to the photographer for future use of the photos, which were submitted to an adult Web site in Canada.

The name of the photographer was not released because she had not been charged with a crime. Showing sexual images of someone younger than 17 would be a felony under state law.

The investigation was reviewed with the Ontario County District Attorney's Office, Povero said.

Photographs of the 13 women were taken over the past two to three years. Sheriff's deputies, according to Povero, have been monitoring the Web site for several months. "We will continue to monitor," said Povero, noting the evidence does not show that a law has been violated.

Victor Superintendent Timothy McElheran sent out an e-mail to parents and members of the community Friday that referred to possible exploitation of several young adults from Victor.

"It is my hope that you will use this unfortunate situation to discuss the safety issues associated with the Internet and the possible threat it poses to the welfare of our young people," he wrote.

JGOODMAN@DemocratandChronicle.com

*** END QUOTE ***

Answers

Dean Jamieson , Mar 17, 2007; 10:46 a.m.

Ontario County is in NEW YORK. Google seems to think this in the USA.

Wigwam Jones , Mar 17, 2007; 10:57 a.m.

Ah, my bad. I read that the photos were on a website in Canada, and Ontario...oh, oops. Well, my apologies, Canadians. It would seem that my initial presumption about Canadians being more laid-back about this sort of thing was correct - here it is a NY county that's forcing a stop to legal behavior. Sorry!

Charles Becker , Mar 17, 2007; 11:32 a.m.

well Wigwam-here's one Canadian who doesn't see anything wrong with advising a photographer that perhaps posting nude or semi-nude pictures of a couple of high school girls on an adult web site may not be in their best interests. I belive in photographers rights but I don't see this as being anything to be concerned about. regards, cb

Fred Goldsmith , Mar 17, 2007; 11:34 a.m.

Imagine that, a county in the U.S. forcing a stop to legal behavior. Hard to imagine! (said with irony) Where did I read that a significant number of Americans, when read passages from the Bill of Rights without knowing what they were being read strongly disagreed with a lot of it?

Charles Becker , Mar 17, 2007; 11:40 a.m.

"a county in the U.S. forcing a stop to legal behavior". Fred-where did it say she was forced to stop? cb

Wigwam Jones , Mar 17, 2007; 11:50 a.m.

"The photographer made the commitment after being interviewed by sheriff's deputies..."

We call that intimidation. It is pretty obvious they leaned on her heavily "in her best interest" as they put it. Coercion, intimidation, and threats. After all, they'd been 'monitoring' her Canadian website for over three months - why? And when she didn't do anything wrong, well, we'll just go have a little chat with her, make her see the light.

A different photographer might have told them to get stuffed. And found themselves being audited by the IRS, having their studios inspected by local zoning authorities, being pulled over for 'tail-light out' whenever they drove a car, etc.

No, no one 'made' her stop. But the 'chilling effect' of that little talk comes through loud and clear. We don't like what you do - if you know what's good for you, you'll stop it. To hell with the law.

Fred Goldsmith , Mar 17, 2007; 11:56 a.m.

Charles-- I was quoting Wigwam, not the article, in the paragraph just above your initial contribution.

Charles Becker , Mar 17, 2007; 12:10 p.m.

Hi Wigwam-I certainly understand what you are saying but it's possible you're jumping to conclusions here. As the name of the photographer was not released, I guess the newspaper could not interview her and get her take on the situation so we don't know if she felt intimidated or just agreed; it's just possible that you're jumping to conclusions. cb

Wigwam Jones , Mar 17, 2007; 12:23 p.m.

Charles, I could well be wrong about how the 'interview' went down. But I spent ten years in law enforcement, and while I'm not Sgt Joe Friday, I know some of the tactics used pretty well.

"Why don't you open the trunk and let me look inside?" is a way of saying "I can't legally search your trunk, but you really had better open it for me voluntarily." It is said as a command imperative, not a casual question. It's all about body language, tone of voice, facial expression, and people's nature fear of the police.

People who have never had an angry cop trying to 'persuade' them to do something 'in their best interest' probably have a hard time imagining such a scenario, but it is done all time - not even illegal for them to do it. They don't come right out and say that if you refuse to do what they want you to do, bad things will happen to you - they just imply.

But yes, the 'interview' could have been totally innocent. My gut tells me otherwise, but I have been wrong before.

Brad - , Mar 17, 2007; 12:27 p.m.

>>>> But yes, the 'interview' could have been totally innocent. My gut tells me otherwise, but I have been wrong before.

Since you don't really know, perhaps it'd be good not to speculate it was not innocent. Sounds like you have a deep-seated agenda...

Wigwam Jones , Mar 17, 2007; 12:31 p.m.

Speculation is in the realm of 'opinion'. I'm allowed to have one. So are you. I hope I do not have a "deep-seated agenda," but you never know.

Would you be 'speculating' that I have a "deep-seated agenda?" Perhaps you had best not speak, then.

Brad - , Mar 17, 2007; 12:33 p.m.

>>> Would you be 'speculating' that I have a "deep-seated agenda?"

No, not speculation. Based on your 12:23pm post - and others.

Wigwam Jones , Mar 17, 2007; 12:37 p.m.

Hmmm, and my speculation was based on my ability to read and interpret the language used in the news story and my experience of ten years working in law enforcement. Your abilities to read count, and mine don't. Go figure.

Charles Becker , Mar 17, 2007; 12:40 p.m.

Hi Wigwam-an interesting topic and I like the fact that we could exchange views in a polite/civilized manner. Either one of us could be wrong-I hope it's you but I can be naive about things. As far as where all this actually took place Canada/U.S.), which was in part your original point after all, as Emily Latella in the original Saturday Night Live series used to say..."never mind". cb :-)

Ted Marcus , Mar 17, 2007; 01:05 p.m.

There's clearly more to the story than the newspaper reported. That may be why Mr. Goodman seems to be making a point of reiterating that no law was violated.

My own speculation is that the "monitors" (and their bosses at the District Attorney's office?) were becoming very aroused.... at the prospect of scoring a high-profile child pornography bust that would launch their political careers into high orbit. Then, when they triumphantly and heroically hauled in the Evil Child Pornographer for an "interview," they were more than disappointed to find the launch scrubbed.

So the best they could do to wipe some of the egg off their faces was to proclaim that it would have been a felony if only the models had been a few months younger, or if the photographer's paperwork were incomplete. That way they (and the school officials) get to the booby prize (as it were) of asserting their credentials as Highly-Effective Vigilant Defenders Of Our Precious Children, even though the case didn't give them what they really wanted.

james copes , Mar 17, 2007; 01:32 p.m.

Gotta love the part where it says the deputies will "continue to monitor the site". I'm sure they will ; )

William Kahn , Mar 17, 2007; 02:35 p.m.

"It is pretty obvious they leaned on her heavily "in her best interest"

You'd better go back and read that quote again:

"She understands that photographing high school students is not in their best interests" (italics added). Is that a problem? Eighteen may be the legal age of consent, but it says nothing about maturity. Two girls, still in high school and living at home, capable of dealing with the seedy side of the real world? Give me a break!
Personally, as a public official, I'd rather deal with the fallout from being a little overzealously proactive than with the aftermath of a tragedy: "Why Didn't You Do Something To Prevent This?" Well, maybe they did.

You also have to consider that the events as they actually happened may have been much different than they way they appeared in the press. Wigwam, if you really were a cop, I would think you'd understand that....

Fred Goldsmith , Mar 17, 2007; 02:55 p.m.

William-- I find increasing excuses for increasing "overzealousness" scary. I know, we're protecting kids so who cares about anyone's civil rights, we're protecting ourselves from terrorists so who cares about our individual privacy, we need to run a well- healed military so who cares about the lives of those we weed out on trumped-up notions of military stability, we have to protect (an old one) the institution of marriage so who cares about the freedom of interracial couples to marry. Protection is necessary but often winds up smothering the protected. There's got to be a balance and many of us feel the scales tilting way in the direction of monolithic authoritarian crazy people who happen to be in charge of some governments.

Conrad Hoffman , Mar 17, 2007; 03:19 p.m.

Victor NY is just a town away from me, and I've been following this in the paper for the last couple days. IMO, it's a combination of bad judgement on the girls and photographers part, the desire not to have that sort of thing going on in a small town, the desire for the press and political figures to have something to jump up and down about, and finally, the fact that the whole Rochester area is far more conservative than most people realize. The outcome is probably the best compromise given the overall situation.

Wigwam Jones , Mar 17, 2007; 05:14 p.m.

William,

Point made about my misquote - thanks for that.

As far as their (the students) ability to deal with the real world, give *me* a break. Either 18 is or it is not the age at which people can sign legally-binding contracts. If it is, then it is. I'd love to have a few 'do-overs' for some stupid decisions I made along the way, so how about it?

If I were a public official, I would hope I would have the intestinal fortitude to say to an aggrieved public that since no laws were broken, there was nothing to be done about it - if you don't want your adult-age high school kids to sign legally-binding contracts to pose naked on the internet, better do that parent thing and tell them not to do it.

Of course, municipalities and counties usually have zoning capability - so if it is really a problem, they do have recourse.

As whether or not I worked in law enforcement, if you question my honesty, send me a private email and I will give you the information you need to independently prove my past affiliations - no need to insinuate that I might just be a liar.

Fred, I'm right with you.

Conrad, I get your point, but it's too bad the photographer wasn't willing to tell the sheriff's office where to get off. This kind of knuckling under leads people to believe it is legal to quash civil rights whenever a couple of young ladies make bad decisions.

D.B. Cooper , Mar 17, 2007; 06:09 p.m.

I get it about the cops methods of getting something done 'off the books'- my dad was a cop for over 22 years. I get it (and wholeheatedly agree) about the age of majority being 18 - I saw that happen during the Vietnam era. I get it about not all 18-year-old girls being as innocent as we'd like to think they are (think 'teen pregnancy'). I get it about young women either rebelling or perhaps trying a 'jump start' for an acting or modeling career by having the pictures shot (they wouldn't be the first to do that by a long shot). I've even been approached on that basis several times, with no modeling fee involved in the discussion. You'd be surprised how many young women just want nude photos of themselves just so they can look back one day at how pretty they were when they were young.

It sounds to me more like one of more of the girls was the close relative of someone important in that particular small town, and their way of stopping the photographer and to 'civil-rights lawsuit-proof' themselves at the same time was to have the cops roust her and get her to 'understand it's not in their (the girls') best interest'. I wonder what's happened to the photos...

Jack Floyd , Mar 17, 2007; 08:12 p.m.

Wonder if she'd have "understood" as well if it hadn't been an armed group with arrest powers (and the ability to traffic ticket the hell out of her) who'd talked with her? Not that ANY threats were made, mind you, just a nice little conversation...at the jailhouse.

William Kahn , Mar 18, 2007; 08:16 a.m.

Wigwam, I wasn't questioning your honesty. I was just surprised that someone with your background would accept anything the press says at face value. The media have their own agendas (along with a lot of folks posting here, apparently). After 20 years with a rather large southern California agency, I learned never to trust a reporter or a lawyer, and always to fly under the radar on a slow news day. Also, never to let 'em promote you beyond first-line supervisor.....

Wigwam Jones , Mar 18, 2007; 09:31 a.m.

William,

I got out of law enforcement when I realized I'd be dealing with the same people for the rest of my life. It gave me a very poor impression of people in general, because I only dealt with the small percentage of people who are complete knuckle draggers and those whom they victimize. After awhile, you start to think that everyone is that stupid and dishonest, which is only nearly true. Everybody is 5150, every driver is deuce. My only friends were cops, nurses, ER workers, and those who worked shifts and could stomach cop humor, which is scary to civilians. My non-cop friends were starting to drift away.

I had no desire to be that depressed and isolated for the rest of my life. I went back to college and got into computers. Photography came later, or rather returned from my high school days. And yes, I avoid reporters and lawyers when I can. I am a fan of the police and the difficult job they do. I also know more or less all of the tricks and shortcuts, and I know that power tends to be corrupting.

I took the news story more or less at face value because it was not written from the usual "we're out to get the cops" point of view and was rather written from the small-town-reporter "look, we caught the bad guy" point of view. The report seemed to be decidedly on side of the police, not suspicious of them, as reporters in larger cities usually are. So there was no reason for me not to trust direct quotes. That was my reasoning, anyway.

William Kahn , Mar 18, 2007; 10:21 a.m.

Well, I had pretty much the same experience. It just took me a lot longer to figure it out, but at least I got a retirement out of it. Now I know you were in California, too....:-)

Brad - , Mar 18, 2007; 10:53 a.m.

I got out of law enforcement when I realized I'd be dealing with the same people for the rest of my life. It gave me a very poor impression of people in general, because I only dealt with the small percentage of people who are complete knuckle draggers and those whom they victimize.

Heh heh... Really. Still claiming you don't have an agenda?

Wigwam Jones , Mar 18, 2007; 11:11 a.m.

Ummm, I don't think too highly of the human race? Is that an agenda?

I'm lost, you'll have to explain to me what my agenda is. I'm willing to listen.

Sylvan Rambo , Mar 18, 2007; 11:49 a.m.

By law in Ontario Canada it IS legal for women to go topless in public. I assume thats 18 and over.

Fred Goldsmith , Mar 18, 2007; 01:15 p.m.

Wigwam, isn't it clear? When one disagrees with you, you automatically have an "agenda." It is a fairly transparent and typical way of being dismissive. My other favorite is using the word "defensive" about someone who has a point of view other than one's own. Kind of avoids the actual issue and moves on to personality (logicians call them ad hominem attacks or fallacies), often resorted to when an argument of substance just isn't there to be found.

Jack Floyd , Mar 18, 2007; 03:42 p.m.

Sylvan,

is it legal to photograph them?

Leszek Scholz , Mar 18, 2007; 08:50 p.m.

The point is: either something is legal, or illegal. If it is legal, then "leaning on" somebody to stop doing it is illegal. One more example of double standards. OTOH, each of us needs to live in a community and a certain degree of compliance does wonders sometimes...

Robert Lai , Mar 19, 2007; 04:11 p.m.

It is legal in Ontario CANADA for women to walk around topless. The case stemmed from when a female working outdoors on a hot day took her top off. She was arrested for indecent exposure. Her defense to the judge was that the men around her were topless, and it's sexual discrimination to not allow her to be similarly topless if she wishes to be. The judge agreed with her. From that point on, Canadian women have had the right to be topless in public.

Rasmus Lindersson , Mar 20, 2007; 06:56 a.m.

"By law in Ontario Canada it IS legal for women to go topless in public. I assume thats 18 and over."

Sylvan: Why just 18 and over? Shouldn't that apply to all, since we're not talking about photographing and posting on a website? They're walking around topless in their own free will, and people under 18 have a free will too don't they?

Regarding the original topic here. If it's not illegal it's legal, isn't it? No authorities can (legally) stop any legal activities or even "advice", in this case the photographer, to stop what she is doing. I, just as Wigwam, get the feeling that she was more or less forced to stop shooting high school students, but I might be wrong.

Wigwam Jones , Mar 20, 2007; 08:13 a.m.

The other shoe drops: Photographer served with 'Cease and Desist' Order. Seems a nearly-forgotten zoning law was remembered:

http://www.10nbc.com/news.asp?template=item&story_id=21946

If the zoning law is being broken, the city has a leg to stand on in enforcing the cease and desist. Of course, all the photographer has to do to remain legal is to move outside the zoning area. Or challenge the zoning regulation in court. But as I mentioned earlier, this is the way that municpalities and counties can legally shut down things they don't like - the 'leaning on' the photographer was unnecessary and (probably) illegal.

Oh well, so it goes.

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