Will the Nikon News Propel Canon to Move?

If you're using a MarkII, why not upgrade to a 1DsIII?

My MarkII is getting really long in the tooth
Ditto - consider upgrading to the next generation. Whichever flavor of 1D you are using: 1D3 is a great camera (and a quantum leap from 1D2) and 1Ds3 is the best DSLR camera ever made.

tell you what BJ - you send me the 8g's and it's done - I don't need/want 21mp - i would have been very happy with 16 and higher iso/little faster nicer screen etc...basically a 1dsIIn...but they went overboard and the camera is better than most of the glass JC

PS - i've shot the mark 3 (1d) and while i agree it's a better cam it's not what i need/want anymore I want a eos3 digital...yes i know it doesn't exist but it is what the next 5d/1d should be JC

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond700/

There is lust in my heart, and many Canon "L" lens in my closet. I also hope Canon has a comparable body that is reasonably priced available soon.

What's great (feature wise) about the EOS 3? I bought one over a year ago and ran only one roll of film through it.

Nikon's D3 is making canon better I'd assume. Canon's supposed to have new product announcements in next 48 hours. Whats two more days? I knew about alot of this when I bought two brand new in their boxes 5D last 7 weeks, assuming some rumors do play out as facts. Anyways have you priced pro lenses from Nikon versus Canon? Some things are thousands more like 600mm f4, others like 24-70 2.8 are about a grand more. Look at 1.4x prices too. If you want to consider switching to Nikon because of D3 and D700 you should study all the prices to make best informed choice if your budget matters.

That July 1st 2008 D700 is a screaming deal and $3,000 usa launch saves you $1,000 over UK launch and $1,600 EU. Nikons second full frame dslr with Dual glass formats is something I wonder if Canon can respond to? For me all I own is full frame eos and adapted other brand lenses so I have zero need for being able to use canon's crop format ,1.6x aps-c. I personally like the incredibly tall built-in flash on this newest ful frame dslr.

My favourite rumor mill concerning D700

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/nikon_d700.html

Same place for Eos Links:

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_5d2_3d_7d.html

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_new_lenses.html

Lindy

SO... Nikon released a 12.1 megapixel full-frame camera without the massive body.

Canon already accomplished this 3 years ago- it's called the 5D. Yes, I suspect there are a plethora of "features" that distinguish the D700 from the 5D, but my 5D does everything I need and then some, including great high-ISO performance in near darkness. I am not wanting for any additional features.

This reminds me of the release of Windows 95. Amidst all the hype was the "joke" that it was already done in the form of Mac '84...

What am I missing here?

I agree, I must be missing something. Its a biggish deal for Nikon users (although won't it irritate D300 owners?) but why the fuss when you are a Canon user? I also have to agree with Lindy, whatever you say about the relative merits of Canon lenses, their prices are very good overall.

Every new advancement is great news, irrespective of manufacturer. Now that Nikon has released its own 5D, Canon's 5D is no longer a niche product. (THANK GOD!) Here's the market as they describe it: "Nikon FX-format performance combined with superior mobility and functional versatility." Yup, that's my 5D, and that's why I like it. It's the world's smallest full frame DSLR (or perhaps now it's tied for that title). The competition is on. I think Canon's 5D will no longer be stuck in this rut of no upgrades, simply because it was a unique product.

One thing about the 700D I find very interesting: "Active D-Lighting automatically compensates highlights or shadows while you shoot, creating images with natural contrast ? even in difficult lighting" (The question mark after 'natural contrast' is theirs, not mine.) I understand this to be automatic contrast compression in contrasty scenes. Do you think they're talking about RAW format, or just how the image is crammed into a JPG? (I suspect the latter, but the former would be nice -- if that's even possible.)

Go Nikon! Booyah! Woohoo! :-)

Asher . , Jul 01, 2008; 10:24 a.m. SO... Nikon released a 12.1 megapixel full-frame camera without the massive body. Canon already accomplished this 3 years ago- it's called the 5D. Yes, I suspect there are a plethora of "features" that distinguish the D700 from the 5D, but my 5D does everything I need and then some, including great high-ISO performance in near darkness. I am not wanting for any additional features. This reminds me of the release of Windows 95. Amidst all the hype was the "joke" that it was already done in the form of Mac '84... What am I missing here?

Amen to that. Canon still has the fastest DSLR in the industry and the highest MP DSLR on the market. Nikon is finally catching up.

Indeed. And if you really must have better, either pay up for a new 1DmkIII, or wait for the 5D mkII

For now, I'm perfectly happy with my 400D and my EOS 30...(full-frame for only 45 euro's!)

Canon's plans won't have been changed by today's announcement (which has been long foreshadowed). Remember 2008 is a Photokina year, so there are bound to be announcements of new models from all the serious camera manufacturers, including Canon - something that they have known for a while, so they are expecting even more competition than just the Nikon D700. There is plenty of speculation as to what models Canon might be planning to release, some of which may be better founded than most of it, but nothing that really constitutes a leak. In the short term, their focus will be on launching the 1000D.

Asher - The difference is the D200/300/700 is build like a tank and fits like a hand crafted leather glove compared to the 5D. I was shooting in salt spray and splash all day sunday with my D200 and didn't even worry. If I'd been with a non-sealed 5D, my shoot would have been over.

Robin - Go hold a D300 in your hands for 15 minutes, then hold a 5D. The ergonomics of the Nikon have always bested Canon.

"The difference is the D200/300/700 is build like a tank and fits like a hand crafted leather glove compared to the 5D. I was shooting in salt spray and splash all day sunday with my D200 and didn't even worry. If I'd been with a non-sealed 5D, my shoot would have been over.

Are you sure about that, Aaron? The 5D is no wall-flower. It's solid, fits my hand just fine, and it can hold its own in the rain and spray. Just because you would have been worried doesn't mean that your worries would be justified.

If weather-sealing is the only main difference, then stuff a $60 Kata rain cover in your bag and move on...

i have had all these in my hands and shot many of them. I am a giant canon apologist (we have better primes, we did it first, etc etc) but it is getting harder and harder. Sure you're 5d is still a decent camera but you really can't believe that it is as good as this new round of cameras. Some of you act as though you work for canon or are counting on stock dividends to survive. For the last 5 years I never had to look at anyone and say - "wow - you've got a better camera than me" but now...well that has changed. The zooms for nikon are more expensive but they are better. The 5D was undisputed for years but so was mike tyson. doesn't mean he is still the best. All I'm saying...said...whatever is that I hope that canon can swing hard and knock one out of the park...it's been awhile JC

Ergonomics will vary from hand to hand. I used my 5D in the wettest spot on Earth and did not have any issues. Again, it's taken Nikon almost 4 years to answer Canon's 5D.

"Sure you're 5d is still a decent camera but you really can't believe that it is as good as this new round of cameras. Some of you act as though you work for canon or are counting on stock dividends to survive. For the last 5 years I never had to look at anyone and say - "wow - you've got a better camera than me""

No offense Joseph, but that's a load of hogwash. Firstly, I don't work for Canon. Secondly, "good" is totally subjective. I could give rat's arse what features new cameras have if my camera does everything I need and want. Thirdly, I never give a crap what other people are shooting with, or whether they "have a better camera than me". I admire others' work, i.e. vision, ideas, originality, creativity, work ethic etc, and not their gear.

I agree with Sarah completely. I think it's high time that Canon had some competition against its 5D. I still think the 5D is a great camera, and for my own purposes, it will be more camera than I will need for many years to come. I just think that with a little competition, we'll see the 5D-line updated more often, and we'll see prices come down much faster for both companies' products. Competition is good for everyone!

"PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let me hear soon that Canon has something Big and dramatic up their sleeves soon..."

They did the 40D, the XSi and Xti a bunch of Point and Shoots(where the money really is) and the 21.1 megapixel mark III. If that is not enough to ak for then I don't know. Guys first learn how to shoot a camera, any camera , then maybe take a couple of courses in Digital Editing. Keep your 5D, because there's is nothing wrong with it, you will save a few hundred bucks.

"Robin - Go hold a D300 in your hands for 15 minutes, then hold a 5D. The ergonomics of the Nikon have always bested Canon."

I've heard this for years, and I've held more than one Nikon in my hands. But, ergonomics are highly subjective, what "fits like a glove" to one person may feel lousy to another. Besides, with all the cameras I've owned over the years, there's never been one that I didn't get used to.

when you are selling images then you care the 5d is slow and old and you can't trust the lcd (i hear the chorus of the histogram works....yes it does) The main point is your guys are acting like I'm attacking canon product...I'm not. I'm attacking canon arrogance and laziness over the past two years.

"when you are selling images then you care the 5d is slow and old"

I've published magazine and newspaper photos, using a single 5D body. If you're finding it too slow, then the problem is in your hand and eyes, not the camera.

I remember a couple of years ago during a similar discussion, saying that I didn't want to see Canon's and Nikon's new offerings devolve into a few new questionable doodads and a couple of more MP with each new camera. I'm not sure that's not happening. Live view is a real yawn IMO and it's probably true for most although I'm sure some find it useful now and then. 14 bit processing is good but it's difficult to see the improvement in the picture. As for the rest of it, I don't see anything compelling enough to run out and buy a new camera unless you just want one, as good a reason as any, I suppose.

Afaics, ever since DSLRs hit about 8MP and started out-resolving all but the best film, it's just been more MP, that's OK to a point, and a lot of new, specialized features that may appeal to some, but don't have enough broad based appeal to be considered break through technology, something that almost everyone would want.

Most people know that buying the latest and the greatest isn't going to make them better photographers, but it's fun and people like their toys. As for me, I'm not as good as my 5D, I doubt a new camera will make me any better.

"your guys are acting like I'm attacking canon product...I'm not."

Quite correct- it seems that it is in fact you who is shilling for Canon by arguing that a 2005 DSLR is obsolete, so give us something new.

"when you are selling images then you care the 5d is slow and old and you can't trust the lcd (i hear the chorus of the histogram works....yes it does) The main point is your guys are acting like I'm attacking canon product...I'm not. I'm attacking canon arrogance and laziness over the past two years."

Arrogance and laziness? What, because they don't introduce a new camera every six months with unnamed features that you want? If it's beneath your dignity, you can send that POS to me, Ill damn sure take it.

"The new 5DMKII is out ! When will the 5DMKIII be available?"

Joseph, have you ever read this terrific article by top wedding photographer, Jeff Ascough?
It's the second entry entitled "Cameras and the desire to upgrade".

The difference is presumably that the EOS 5 uses consumer-class build and is very slow if you need to fire consequtive frames a lot. The D700 has Nikon's top-of-the-line autofocus and very good build quality. It fires at 8 fps if needed. Basically everything essential that the D3 does, but at 40% off the price and smaller body size.

The Nikon models aren't really aimed head-to-head with Canon's, but "in between".

Pretty funny; I posted my disappointment after seeing the D700 (in relation to the 5D) on an internet NG, and nearly got mugged. I agree it's a nice unit, but nothing that would make me consider giving up my 5D. And I really like Canon's f4 L lenses. Nice and light (relatively) with great build and optical quality.

very slow if you need to fire consequtive frames a lot.

The number of people who truly "need" to fire rapid consecutive frames is miniscule. People may think they "need" this, but it only makes a difference in professional sports, pj, and certain specialty applications. I shot sports with a 10D when I first started using digital and have plenty of published images. It just takes a brain in the photographer's head.

If Canon waits for Nikon and then responds, they are dead. Likewise, if Nikon waits for Canon, then responds, they are dead. They have long term strategies in mind and aim at what they think the market will support and what they can successfully supply. There are relatively few people working at the cutting edge or hampered by limitations in current products. But they both (probably all of the makers) have marketing folks that love the folks that "hate Canon" or "hate Nikon," that "need" that 1 fps faster or 5 frames more continuous, or agonize over a 98% viewfinder instead of a 99% finder, or who couldn't live with or without a status display on the top or a pop-up flash, etc., etc., and, the "I bought my first ...." in 1976 and I'm not changing now!" guys ought to get checks every month for driving the forum frenzies.

The number of people who truly "need" to fire rapid consecutive frames is miniscule.

Whatever. When you need it, you need it.

Let me give an example: I was photographing dancers who had long dresses, they were organized in two rows on stage. I was photographing a dancer who was in the second row. The clothes of the dancers in the front row blocked the view to the 2nd row in and out frequently and unpredictably. Unpredictably because my crop was such that I could only see either the back row dancer, or the blocking cloth. It was basically impossible to get useful frames in a short time. I tried 9fps and got several. 2nd example. Let's assume that someone is performing acrobatics. A jump sequence which happens once per performance day. What if you want to photograph it as a sequence?

It really doesn't require a brainless person to cause some DSLRs to not take pictures for a while.

Well I am not upgrading from my Oly OM-1n, but I still like to see these new fangled technical innovations (or evolutions, or increments as the case may be). Craig you are right on with a lot of stuff you said, sometimes you just improve in small increments instead of leaps and bounds. Looking at the specs the D700 looks like a fine camera. My only real knock is that the magnification and view finder size appear pretty pathetic, though it certainly has the advantage of chimping if you need to which I cannot do with film.

Frankly if I ever get a dSLR it will probably be a Canon FF camera, mostly because of the film to flange distance on the ESO system allowing me to use all of my OM glass with the camera, even if it is in stop down mode for the operations (I frankly love my glass, and I don't earn a dime using it, so I'll use what I enjoy). Now if only Olympus would hear the cries of the masses and introduce a FF sensor in their line up. Maybe a full frame sensor using the OM bayonet mount and optional mechanical aperature control. *sigh*, yeah I know, probably never going to happen.

Anyway, the D700 looks fairly slick. If Canon introduces a new 5d replacement I can't see that as being anything but a good thing. Competition is healthy. Bouncing from camera system to camera system probably isn't.

Ilkka, you missed Jeff's point. 90% of pro photographers are not going to be in that situation.

Joseph Carey, 5D to slow? What? Do you need speed for landscapes?

Craig Gillette, Canon or Nikon will never be dead. Pentax and Olympus are still kicking, in a way Minolta is still with us in the form of Sony.

Why all the fuss over the D700? This wont hurt Canon. I am a Nikon user and I still am thinking about purchasing a 5D with 17-40mm L for landscapes. I could get that combo for less than a D700. I can tell you that it will be a long while before Nikon offers an affordable FX (under $1800). When that time comes Canon may suffer a little, not much.

I still often think I should have gone Canon. I think I could have got more for the money. What made me go Nikon was quality. But, who is to say that Nikon is better quality. Word of mouth is not always fact. Nikon MAY have better optics but Canon still has a better, more affordable, DSLR.

Really, some of you people... talking yourselves into a two-horse race. As bloody usual. Discussion of these issues are quite useful, but be a little broader in your outlooks. 'Mkay?

i guess the only part of photography is landscapes... I deal with people every day saying that they wish their 5d focused faster, wish that their 5d had a better screen, wish that their 5d was weather sealed, wish that it could control flashes wirelessly, wish that it was upgraded to the newest stuff. if their are some of you that are happy with what you have that is awesome...the point of this whole discussion was do you think canon will react to this sooner than they were going to and will it be a true revolution. we all know photokina is in sep/oct and that we expected canon to have something there but will it be cutting edge or will canon continue the policy of incremental steps that they have had since they got into this... The same people attacking me and the few others that feel canon needs to get off their ass are the same ones that have long complained about canon holding back on things in order to get us to buy more cameras. I for one was stung badly by the 1D2 to 1D2n situation...not that the N was that much better but that it was any better and cost the same and was for the most part firmware possible upgraded (other than the screen) I said before and I'll say again - what i want is for canon to build a d700 so i can use all my glass which is better in my opinion than most of nikons...not all but most. I want 5/sec, fast autofocus, better build, 14 bit resolution, 12.8 mp...if they give me more then awesome. if they give me less then it's time to think about a new tool. that is all it is...

My point is neither Canon nor Nikon, nor one might think the others, wait for a competitor to release something and then decide what to do. There have been a few times when an announced item was canned as it was becoming "overcome by events" but that's an unusual event. The OP's title was asking if Nikon's news was going to propel Canon to move. Canon never stopped moving. If I had to take anything from some of these recent releases, it would be, make sure the product is really ready. Of course, it seems like even if there was a "banding" or "focus" or whatever problem with some of these other recent cameras, it seems likely there will be plenty of people jumping at the chance to be "testers" anyways.

I suspect the features of the D700 have been much less of a surprise to Canon (even before they were publicised) than were the features of the D300. I think it's evident that Canon underestimated what Nikon would do with the D300 when they designed the 40D - with the result that the 40D is now offered for less than the original Digital Rebel/300D to try to gain sales traction. There has also been more of an interval since the teething problems with the 1D Mk III. Both of these, and the abnormally long life cycle of the 5D, suggest that Canon may have been hard at work to get their next cameras right.

One other thing to bear in mind is that although both Nikon and Canon are now producing steppers that are capable of exposing a full frame sensor without the need for stitching (thus increasing yield and lowering manufacturing cost), Canon has a much greater cumulative experience with manufacturing larger sensors, and probably a significant advantage in yields. I would not be totally surprised if Canon managed to market a full frame DSLR at the $1,500 price point before too long (they're not that far off already with the 5D). At $3,000, the D700 represents good value for what it is - but sales will be limited. There are probably 20 times as many buyers at $1,500 for a full frame body, even if it lacks all the bells and whistles of the D700.

It still holds true today:

Captain Spaulding to Mrs. Rittenhouse, "We'll set up a seventy-five-cent meal that will knock their eyes out. After we knock their eyes out, we can charge 'em anything we want."

I think Nikon just told Mrs. Rittenhouse, "We've got a better meal, at a cheeper price."

Quote: Animal Crackers (1930) Graucho Marx

Captain Spaulding (Canon)

Mrs. Rittenhouse (Consumer)

Nikon, played by Nikon

I do think that the D300 and D700 are game changers, but I don't think that Canon responds in the way you suggest. I work for a fairly high tech company and our product development is a couple years out. We are in a similar situation to canon in that we have only 2-4 serious compititors (albeit in a much smaller market) but I don't think we pay that much attention to them. We focus on making the best product we can and let marketing worry about differentiating it. From a product development standpoint, with the expense and lead times involved, that is all you can do.

That said, I do think that the new Nikon's low noise levels and the AF systems are spectaular and that is driving a lot of business their way and there is a lot to like about the 700. I have a 30D now and have been thinking about switching to a 300 D for about six months. Now, I think I am finally going to pull the trigger and go to the 700.

Joseph Carey, I see your point and agree 100%. But, you have to admit that the 5D is a very attractive camera for the landscape photographer. It will be years before we see a Nikon FX for less than $1,800.00. Although the 5D is an old camera it still fills a niche that is years away for Nikon. I was really peed to hear the D700 was going for 3 grand. That is still so far out of reach for the general public. I just dont see that helping Nikon.

I think Canon have had the lead for a while, but agree with Mark U that they have underestimated Nikon, and to a lesser extent Sony and Pentax in other classes of cameras. This doesn't suprise me, because the aggressive strategies a company uses to get to number 1, are no longer as useful once you are number 1. In pricing and developing aggressively to get to number 1 you are attacking others market share. Once you are on top, doing the same thing canabalises your profit as you compete with yourself. As a consequence of being number 1 for so long, Canon has become conservative.

It will be interesting to see if Canon's attempt to segment its product line, such a weather sealing only in 1 series cameras, can survive when these features are being shoved into consumer cameras by Nikon and Pentax. Their decision to go with incompatible EF-S mount lens is also looking like being the wrong choice, given Nikon's DX compatibility.

Finally Canon are getting quite defensive with regards to their IS system. My recent Canon 450D came with a glossy brochure extolling the virtues of IS lenses and why I needed them. It was quite sad really. After reading it, I was more convinced than ever that IS is highly desirable, but what was missing from Canon's brochure was the fact that they actually don't offer it in two thirds of their lenses, and you will pay big $ for it multiple times over if buying IS systems in lenses. In fact after reading Canon's IS marketing brochure and how desirable it was to have IS, it made me want to go out and buy a Pentax because I know my 35/2, 50/2.5, 100/2.8, 70-210/3.5-4.4 USM and Zenitar fisheye are never going to benefit from Canon's approach to IS!

canonites, i feel your pain. if it's any consolation, the d700 has a cheap memory slot, not the push-button chamber variety, but a rather inelegant sliding latch that seems benath a camera of that caliber. seriously, no need to worry. market competition can only benefit the consumer in the long run. i'm sure canon's got aces up its sleeve.

For a detailed insight into how Canon's thinking was last September, look at the entries for 17th September here:

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_5d2_archive.html

Given the lead times involved in product development, it gives a good insight to what may emerge. I also suspect that following a number of bloody noses with both lenses and cameras, Canon may be more inclined to do more prototype work than they have been doing of late, where they had adopted an approach of speeding time to market by relying on computerised design analysis.

"and 1Ds3 is the best DSLR camera ever made"

hmmm.not sure what features on the 1dsmk3 make you think it is the best dslr ever made, but i can name quite a few features of my d3 that i really think set it apart. remember that 35mm cameras are not, nor ever have been, designed to take landscapes or studio shots. they are action, event and pj cameras.

in response to the whole IS thing... In camera IS is really awful - you can't see the results as you frame and it is not as effective. There is a reason that Pentax, olympus, sony, and at least two other minor players are fighting over 8% of the market. Remember that Minolta went out of business with 10% of the market. There is a reason that the two biggest (and best - no matter how much bs smack talking and nonsense there is between nikon and canon guys these two do make the best cameras SYSTEMS) In any event - lets hope (as canon shooter not wanting to give up my glass) that the new offerings from Canon are up to snuff...

Here's my 2 cents. This "debate" over Canon and Nikon has been going on for decades. Which is better, bla bla bla... Use what you like. If you're a gadget person who enjoys the thrill of upgradeing every time a new model comes out, Great. This horse has been dead for quite a while, when should we stop beating it?