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Art? is subjective but...

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 19, 2008; 01:34 p.m.

Maybe this is not the correct forum for this but... I joined this site to learn and educate myself in the art of photography. I am very much a novice but I have loved photography since I can remember and in the short time I have participated in this community I have learned so much from so many amazing PHOTOGRAPHERS and ARTISTS. I will always defend freedom of speech and freedom of art and expression but please, this can not be what this community was intended for?

http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=5247560 - NOT “art”?

I went to this mans site because he left some interesting critiques on a particular photo and I liked his seemingly intelligent point of view. I wanted to check out his portfolio and wow, this is just amateur porn. I don’t necessarily like the idea of censorship but this is a community for artists in the medium of photography, no? Not for someone to display their amateur pornographic shots and for others to view it for free?

Now this is... http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=3328705 - ART, lighting, composition ect….

Just an opinion; what do you think? Am I over reacting, or missing something?

Responses

Randall Ellis , Sep 19, 2008; 01:54 p.m.

Photo.net is generally very open about content and is not likely to restrict anyone's efforts. Your argument that you always defend freedom of speech is somewhat undermined by your suggestion that this content should be removed - you might consider simply ignoring this 'genre' of image rather than suggesting that it be prohibited.

Art is, after all, in the eye of the beholder, and while these images don't appear to have any artistic (or aesthetic) value to my eye (lacking line, form, shape, etc) someone else might feel that this sort of image is indicative of the times and therefore is indeed art. Or there might be something of value that I'm missing - they certainly garnered a lot of comments... Either way, I have to say that you are indeed overreacting, since you asked...

- Randy

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 19, 2008; 02:05 p.m.

Thank you Randall

I don’t completely disagree with you that by suggesting this content should be removed is not abiding to "defending freedom of speech and art" but I feel that maybe for this forum in particular (Photo.net) it should be controlled. I do agree that it is best to just ignore the users who post this type of photo.

But I thought it an interesting debate and was curious as to others opinions and views, that is all. Thank you for yours. :)P

JDM von Weinberg , Sep 19, 2008; 02:17 p.m.

You can always choose not to look at them. Given what is available at a <cr> on a Google search, I doubt that Photo.net is going to ruin anyone's morals.

Jay Leno had a joke just last night about porn watching on the internet having slipped (right word?) to second place in web viewership.

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 19, 2008; 02:39 p.m.

JDM

I never had any concern over someone’s morals being corrupted. You control your own morality. I happen to enjoy porn as much as the next person (weather or not they will admit it!) I just think this is not the proper place to exploit it, just my humble opinion. Thank you for your input.

Ellis Vener , Sep 19, 2008; 03:02 p.m.

How is this a debate, much less an interesting one? I don't see anything to debate: he (or she I suppose) is an amateur photographer who has found amateur exhibitionists and the world is full of amateur voyeurs. No one ever said all photographs, statues, paintings, music, writing, drawings, or dance have to be art.

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 19, 2008; 04:07 p.m.

Ellis

An honest, intelligent and direct opinion; thank you

Lex (perpendicularity consultant) Jenkins , Sep 19, 2008; 04:14 p.m.

To appreciate an artistic vision it's often essential to review not only an entire body of work, but other artistic criticism. If you regard the work and criticism received for the photographer in question over a period of time, a certain vision begins to become almost tangible that defies easy interpretations and labels, such as "porn", "morality" and "exploitation".

Out of context, certain photos, like certain words and statements, appear to be one thing. Within context, they become something else. Even within context, you may not necessarily like or agree with the statement.

It's interesting that most reactions to that portfolio - negative and positive - have centered on the nudes. Where is the outrage over the photographer's travel and street photography, which are arguably just as incompetent? Yet, again, within context, I've found his portfolio to be among the most enjoyable I've seen in a long time. His vision is refreshingly untainted by pretension.

Josh Root , Sep 19, 2008; 04:33 p.m.

In general, the line that photo.net draws is (in a tongue in cheek fashion) "If it would be in playboy, it's probably okay. If it would be in Hustler, it is probably not okay." Now, of course that isn't accurate 100% of the time. But it is a good guideline to think about when deciding what nude images to upload.

From time to time, images get uploaded that are over the "porn" line that we as photo.net admins draw. Users are given a chance to remove those images if they wish to continue to be active on photo.net. Most do not upload problem images to be jerks, it is just that the "porn" line is so different for so many people.

One person's "porn" is another person's "art" and another person's "JC Penny bra sale flier".

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 19, 2008; 04:44 p.m.

Lex and Josh...

Very well put Josh, thank you. I think that I may have come across stronger then I meant to in my original posting. I was just a bit surprised to see such a collection. He does have some interesting photos and a few non nudes that IMHO are good. To Lex, I admire you very much and am happy to see that you wanted to throw your few cents into this "discussion". I know this may not seem an interesting topic to some but I do find it interesting. As an art student I am thoroughly intrigued by the fine line of "art" I was hoping to hear some introspective views about it. I will look closely at how I am putting myself across the next time.

To Mr or Mrs Atkins, I mean no disrespect. I just wish that members like this might more closely edit the photos they post as to keep closer to the objective of this forum. Or maybe that is the point of this forum, to show what they feel is their art.

I thank you for your input, :)P I will shut up now…..

Charles Heckel , Sep 19, 2008; 05:10 p.m.

In response to the specific example you gave, recently an eminent (emetic?) British artist painted a representational study of a well-known and quite obese lady starkers on a flowered sofa. In my view it was quite ghastly, mostly because of that sofa. It sold in the seven-figure range--pounds sterling, thank you kindly.

If you would care to be horrified further, there are quite a number of ladies whose representations spurred public outrage, by such luminaries as Manet, Ingres, and Degas. From a rational viewpoint you might choose to be offended by Renoir's portrayals of women as insipid bonbons, and prefer the wonderful incisive portraits by Suzanne Valadon, an Impressionist painter who is more famous as a model for male Impressionist painters.

I don't contend that the picture you have brought up is particularly artistic or worthy of the attention you yourself have brought it. It does at least show that women will get regard, even when they have let themselves go, and that certain organs will get attention that will particularly benefit from it. Tant pis, or tant mieux?

Christine Mitchell , Sep 19, 2008; 06:51 p.m.

I'm wondering if it would still be considered art if it were a picture of a male in the same pose? Of course, we wouldn't find a man in playboy, so it would be hard to judge. I'll have to side with Phaedra on this. It also looks to me to be more raunch than art. There are some very tasteful, beautiful nudes on this site and this aint one of 'em. As to whether photo.net should allow them...Phaedra, just walk on by and make sure your children and grandchildren aren't in the room when you browse this site, just in case.

Nolan Ross , Sep 19, 2008; 06:52 p.m.

After clicking on that image I have decided that freedom of speech is an amazing thing. I joined the army 2 times because of my love for the USA and the constitution. I believe if photo.net wants to exercise it's freedom of speech to the fullest then they should do that. I would like to exercise my freedoms's of not looking at it. So good day to you all, I am logging out because I personally do not wish to be a part of a porn club. So freedom goes both ways. The freedom to belong to a porn site and the freedom to log out and not return. Good luck to you all.

Josh Root , Sep 19, 2008; 07:02 p.m.

"I'm wondering if it would still be considered art if it were a picture of a male in the same pose?"

Robert Mapplethorp made a lot of money and became very famous with nude images of men. Many people dislike those images, but they also hang in some of the most important art galleries int he world.

Christine's opinion is completely valid and an excellent example of what I said above. One person may think an image is perfectly acceptable and another will think it is the worst form of debauchery (not to say that Christine's feelings are quite that strong, but you get my point). However, that has been the debate with nude imagery since the age of oil paintings.

Photo has not ever promoted itself as a "child friendly" site. From the very beginning it has been a site for adults who wish to discuss photography. And yes, sometimes that photography involves nude images (of men or women). The terms of use spell this out fairly clearly. We continue to add features to allow people to avoid nude images as much as possible, either because they wish to view the site at work, dislike them for moral reasons, or are simply not interested. But photo.net will not ever be able to promise that a user will not see a nude image on our site.

As I said above, we do have a level of acceptability that images need to meet. And from time to time images are removed that do not meet that requirement. But we do not "out" people or attempt to shame them publicly if this is the case. We simply have a discussion with the photographer and educate them on what is and is not acceptable for the site.

Pete Millis , Sep 19, 2008; 07:24 p.m.

Christine, have you never heard of "Playgirl" - the nudy mag for women with naked blokes in it?

As for Chris's portfolio, well Phaedra linked directly to the most explicit image he could find, thus taking it completely out of context. If you look at Chris's portfolio as a whole, he has done a pretty good job at emulating what would be found in back in the 70s, or even in some "What The Butler Saw" type stuff from even earlier. 99% of what is in his portfolio is nowhere near explicit and is soft as a flaccid prick compared with what can be found daily in bottom shelf newspapers and on TV. I think some people need to get a grip - it's not like there's any exploitation of innocent victims going on here, or exploitation of some poor beggar in the street just to get yet another "poor beggar in the street" street shot! Chris's stuff is no less art than anything else that's here - in fact, it's far more art than a huge amount of the stuff that is here in people's galleries.

Damn, where's Nolan gone? I hope he doesn't talk about naked ladies or look at nudy mags with his army chums.

Pete Millis , Sep 19, 2008; 07:30 p.m.

Phaedra, if anything, the second picture you linked to (the only by Oleg) could be seen to be "worse" in that it depicts a woman who has been sexually abused or assaulted, and is in this position not of her own free will. Isn't that a stronger form of pornography than the first picture? Is it really more artful? (notice the question marks - I'm asking questions, not making statements!)

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 19, 2008; 07:38 p.m.

...

I thank you Christine for the support, although I do have to agree with Josh on the male nude point. Women are so much more beautiful though....

I suppose it is just my personal opinion that the shot I am referring to in particular (yes it was the "worst" of them but with many, many just as explicit) I find it hard to see the craft behind it. With the other some what well done shots in his portfolio why not edit them down? I could have one of my girlfriends get freaky in my room and take 50 snap shots of her spread eagle with my Polaroid....but that would be art wouldn’t it. Just not my taste. So with all of your wonderful input it has helped me to see that even if it is not your classical sense of "good taste" or discipline it is ART! :)

Maybe I will begin a retrospective of poop in all its glorious forms.... :)P

Pete Millis , Sep 19, 2008; 07:40 p.m.

Actually, Phaedra, thinking about it a bit more...you seem to think that naked women shots are ok if taken with artisitic lighting and all the other "well honed" technical skills, but not ok if taken by an amateur. In which case, perhaps we should take things further and decide that photographs taken by anyone without a high degree of technical expertise cannot be considered as art and shouldn't be posted on PN. What a good idea - we would then no longer have to look at poor quality portraits, or poor quality landscapes, or street shots, or macros or still lifes and so on. Unfortunately, in terms of artistic merit, your photographs of your child are probably a pretty close match to Chris Atkin's shots of women - so that means that your photographs would have to go as well ;-) (along with most of mine no doubt)

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 19, 2008; 07:44 p.m.

Pete :)

I think that was my original intent of my question. The second picture I refer to AS true art has thought, concept, lighting, composition behind it. The first just seems to be without. But as this "conversation" has extended I am realizing that, that isn’t the point. My question was more an arrogant opinion of MY taste, although I am sure I am not alone. I have seen some beautiful nudes on here with your not so typical beautiful female forms. It is the "craft" behind the picture. I am starting a study on the nude form and art of photographing it, I suppose that is what has peaked my interest. :)P

Pete Millis , Sep 19, 2008; 07:45 p.m.

Actually, Phaedra, perhaps you could provide some balance to what is here....I'd be happy to "get freaky" so you can take 50 poloroid shots of me and post them in your portfolio ;-)

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 19, 2008; 07:49 p.m.

Oh petey you dirty boy...

hehe ;-) (blush, blush)

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 19, 2008; 07:59 p.m.

why Pete?

Of all my photos to make that comment about why the ones of my child? I had alot of thought behind the set up and even though they didn’t turn out great I have far worse shots in my PF. Thank you for looking none the less. P

Pete Millis , Sep 19, 2008; 08:07 p.m.

I know - I'm terrible!

There is some balance to the subject that I just stumbled across - some photographs by Franz Heiberschleben http://photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=2395870 . he's had photographs deleted by admin before, seemingly because they are male nude, rather than female nude. And in terms of technical quality they are probably better than Chris Atkins' photographs. I can only think that the moderator viewed them differently from other nudes purely because they are of the male, rather than the female. I actually find Franz's pictures quite amusing but I get the feeling that a lot of blokes harbour some sort of insecurity when it comes to seeing nude blokes - perhaps it makes them feel a bit "gay" - I dunno. It certainly doesn't make me feel gay and I certainly don't feel uncomfortable looking at them - just amused. That Fred Goldsmith bloke, he has mainly pictures of blokes in his portfolio - all very well taken, a large number of them nude, but I just take them for what they are - photographs of human beings like me, or you, or anyone else on the planet.

Pete Millis , Sep 19, 2008; 08:10 p.m.

Phaedra, the only reason I chose the photographs of you child was that it was obvious that you had thought about the set up, and they are photographs of a person. I sort of saw them as similar to Chris Atkins' pictures in that it is obvious he has put some thought into them as well. I certainly wasn't meaning to knock you pictures in any way - it was just a thought that flew through my little mind!

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 19, 2008; 08:33 p.m.

Pete :)

Good point on Frnazes photos, I had come across his PF before. I do think they are of better quality then Chris's but this does not really matter. :) I think the male nude is still seen more as crude then art in any form. Shame shame.....

I apologize for getting a bit defensive, my Motherly instincts perhaps! I do see your point and this whole exchange from all has help to educate me on perspectives, that is good.

By the way Pete, I like your PF, nice collection of images :)P

Pete Millis , Sep 19, 2008; 08:45 p.m.

Ha, that Motherly instinct thing is great - I have the same...if anybody knocks my photographs of my kids.... woe betide them!

Thanks for the kind comment :) You too.

Pete

Walt Flanagan , Sep 19, 2008; 09:58 p.m.

Phaedra, you linked to just one picture. When placed in context of the entire gallery

http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=661890

I get the impression the photographer was just snapping away and posted the entire series.

I far prefer this series to the "art" you linked to. Why? Because "Emily" actually seems like a real woman compared to the staged scene of the woman and the rope which did absolutely nothing for me.

Fred Goldsmith , Sep 19, 2008; 10:40 p.m.

"Actually, Phaedra, perhaps you could provide some balance to what is here....I'd be happy to "get freaky" so you can take 50 poloroid shots of me and post them in your portfolio ;-)"

Now you've got me jealous, Pete! :)

Josh Root , Sep 19, 2008; 11:02 p.m.

Folks,

I'm pleased to see that this conversation actually had some interesting debate and all the while kept a respectful tone. That is something that rarely happens with highly-charged topics such as this.

Well done.

Lex (perpendicularity consultant) Jenkins , Sep 19, 2008; 11:05 p.m.

At least one reply from Chris Atkins to a critique indicated that he intends these photos to appear a bit cheesy. While it's debatable whether he succeeds in his efforts to cultivate a boudoir snapshot aesthetic, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. That's after having viewed every photo - yup, all 469 - and read many comments on both individual photos and his portfolio as a whole.

I wonder whether the photos of Emily would have provoked the same responses had the model been different. On the one hand, I can see why some would find certain photos distasteful. On the other hand, perhaps the choice of a model with certain physical imperfections and the quite literal "in your face" poses were deliberately intended to provoke a reaction in viewers, challenging their bourgeois notions of comfortable nude photography.

John O'Keefe-Odom , Sep 20, 2008; 10:21 a.m.

There's something to be said for models with "physical imperfections." People are people; most of us are ugly; anyone can be beautiful. Why not address sexuality? Why not, in the same vein, show someone doing their laundry or straightening their stereo wires? Does it matter? No, it doesn't. Yes, it does. Make the illustration. Make the picture.

Really, I don't know what happened to my mind over the years, but I can tell you that after a while, several years, of pursuing an amateur interest in figure drawing and painting, that it is clear to me that I do not see people in the same way anymore. In my travels, in my life as a man, I've seen a lot of naked people over the years. It's not that big a deal to me anymore. In one sense, a person's body is an object; in another, that person is a person. It's the "person" in the nude person that makes the difference. The human body is the human body. We can accept it and use it for communication.

Charles Heckel , Sep 21, 2008; 02:35 p.m.

Lex speaks of challenging the bourgeois, of art for shock's sake. Suppose instead we subscribe to the bourgeois notion that the function of art is to edify. I am given to observe that a woman, physically imperfect as we will all eventually be, can make an intimate display that would publicly be considered vulgar, and gain the interested cooperation of a doubtless-imperfect companion. I don't find the woman or the gesture interesting in particular, as I am not the companion, but nonetheless I contemplate a useful life lesson, and that is edifying. So if the photo in question is inartistic, it is neither the model nor the gesture that makes it so.

I think it is inartistic, and can point to a number of Japanese woodcuts of the same sort of content and explicitness that I think are artistic. Their makers share John O'Keefe-Odom's philosophy that nudity is simply not that big a deal, and sexuality gets essentially the same sort of esthetic treatment that they would give a still life or a landscape. So I conclude that shock value is doubtless all very well, but if you stop at shock you get schlock.

Lex (perpendicularity consultant) Jenkins , Sep 22, 2008; 01:15 a.m.

I didn't say anything about shock art. Didn't even imply it. Or even bring up the matter of the function of art. I suppose those issues could be inferred from my characterization of popularly acceptable nude photography as bourgeois. But that wasn't the point of my comments.

Charles Heckel , Sep 25, 2008; 01:55 p.m.

I don't know what shock art is, Lex. I spoke of art for shock's sake, I got that from "cheesy," "deliberately intended to provoke a reaction in viewers," and "challenging their bourgeois notions of comfortable . . .", and you were quite clearly speaking of Atkins' intention, that is to say, his perception of the functionality of his work. I think the point of your comments was to make his work a little more accessible, in that you succeeded, and my first paragraph supports your point, even if from a bourgeois perspective.

My second paragraph makes the point that even a snapshot-like image needs to have some interesting formal properties to qualify as an artwork. Doubtless we could scoff at this idea as a comfortable bourgeois perspective, but we would be left with a circularity: art is that which is art. You are certainly welcome to assert that this picture does in fact have interesting formal properties, in which case the question becomes, "What are they?"

Craig Unger , Sep 25, 2008; 05:12 p.m.

I suppose that having been a physician, and thankful that the very first amendment to our constitution gaurenteed us freedom of speach ( and, as it's been interpreted, expression ), I can't get too bent out of shape about gynocologic photos of women. Do I find them particularly congenial....not really, as they're too "clinical", they don't arose much of a response in me one way or another. What I find interesting is the number of times they are viewed - which leads to my point.

Studies conducted by the armed services were cumulated into an analytic survey and psyhco-social evaluation, examining the "pornography" of killing ( as well as sexuality ). "On Killing" yielded some fascinating conclusions. One of these is that as we've transitioned from a primarily rural society, in which food animals were slaughtered, and children routinely saw domestic animals mating; to an industrial and urban society, the interest in explicit images of killing, bondage, and nudity/ coitus, rose dramatically. The urban dweller was simply not used to witnessing such things, even in the context of animal husbandry.

Extending this argument a bit, the United States is a puritanical, highly ( Christian ) religious society, and what was acceptable in other cultures, was not ( and, in many respects is still not) accepted readily within our culture as having any merit, legitamacy, or place in any venue, including the arts. Going "over the line" is relatively easy in America, because the line is so narrowly defined by the arbiters of morality and ethics. Consider Senator Strom Thurmond's reaction to the public funding of a certain ( now deceased ) artist's public exhibition. So, there's a cultural factor to be considered when images of bondage, violent death, and "explicit" ( as opposed to non-explicit[?] - I can't quite sense the difference between the two; I suppose it's the extent to which genitals are visible ) nudity are at issue regarding "merit".

The paradox: America is the source of most "pornographic" imaging, as well as violent media ( and sadly, violent reality ) in the world. We are fascinated by the forbidden. But it is forbidden, and thus fascinating, here - not necessarily elsewhere. This is an international Web site. It would probably quell one's aversion to certain, ultimately benign, images, to keep in mind the culturally imbued prejudices they have necessarily absorbed. That addresses content. As for artistic merit...as always, that's in the eye of the beholder.

Sorry this is so dry...but the subject, when you come down to it, is not particularly shocking, and hardly rare in controversies within American society.

Lex (perpendicularity consultant) Jenkins , Sep 25, 2008; 06:47 p.m.

You were doing well with your first two paragraphs, Craig. Good points, and I agree that isolation from the grittier aspects of mundane living have escalated prurient interests in both sexuality and violence as entertainment.

However, there's nothing particularly unique or reprehensible about American or Christian values. That's a cheap shot because it's easy pickings, low hanging fruit. Compared with much of the world we're duffers where mixed morality, confused ethics and incomprehensible taboos are concerned.

Craig Unger , Sep 26, 2008; 03:58 a.m.

Lex:

I was by no means taking a "cheap shot", nor pygmy hunting, when I made the observation that the United`States arose from Puritan origins ( remember grade-school civics?) which still permeate our collective phenomenology as to what is proper and what is obscene; that the United`States is the most fundamentalist Christian nation in the industrialized West, and is, in general, more religiously oriented even in the realm of mainstream religion; and that these values - that is, religious enjoinders - are at odds with our fascination with the pornography of sex and killing. This is hardly a shot from the hip speculation: A society based upon the separation of Church and State ( recall that, aside from avarice, this country was settled by religious outcasts, who were seeking to observe in their own fashion without oppression; this includes Jews, who were literally being hunted , through Europe, South America, and the British, French and Spanish` New World colonies by the Inquisition - an institution which survived into the twentieth century ) is plagued, each election, by what are, essentially, issues of particularized religious morality. Stem cell research, the teaching of Darwinian evolution and sex education in our schools, and even abortion, are morally null issues - except as these matters interface with fundamentalist and orthodox Christianity. Thus, each election, we see a contravention of the Founding Father's intentions ( the founders being either atheists or deists according to historical speculation, based upon a review of the written notes of Washington, Franklin, and most especially Jefferson, a leading light of Secular Humanism ) in the spectacle of politicians appealing to the Religious Right. If you've not noticed this tendency by candidates for office to establish an ecclesiastically moral high ground so as to please the fundamentalists ( and not noted that these issues, which are in the venue of religion and morality, not broad-based political imperatives such as foreign affairs, military spending, basic human rights such as adequate housing, nutrition and medical care; and, most compellingly, the state of our failing economy - these issues are pushed onto the slates of the parties by small, but vociferous , caucuses, despite their irrelevance to political affairs and the leadership qualities of the candidates ), I'd have to conclude that you're not politically oriented, or simply indifferent - and thus oblivious to - the maneuvering of the religious right. There are fundamentalist groups of such a radical nature that their agenda is to create a theocracy of American government.

I agree that this is low hanging fruit - but one need not pick it, it drops from the branches and lands at one's feet.

Regarding the inherent hypocrisy of an ultra-religious society churning out what is described as "pornography": This came to issue before the highest court in the land, the Supreme Court, which held that pornography is a community based perception. Thus, in New York City or San Francisco, people pursue their interests - whatever they may be - with little interference. In more conservative regions, classics such as Catcher in the Rye, and texts containing Darwinian Theory ( as opposed to Creationism ) are not only banned from curricula, but actually burned; and communities fight constitutionally based organizations to establish a status quo in opposition to the first amendment ( see the Litigation Records, ACLU).These disturbances permeate our society, and not infrequently turn violent - as in the murder of physicians, or the bombing of the abortion clinics at which they practiced.

That I believe that our society is more culturally shattered and disturbed by untoward religious controversy is based, again, on the concurrence of a fascination with pornography, and our standing as the most adamantly Christian society of the industrial west ( see " The God Delusion"). Even a staunch conservative such as Barry Goldwater answered the religious right with the assertion that his legislative initiatives would not be dictated by fringe groups foisting their beliefs upon him, or the majority of Americans. But the majority of Americans, if less fanatic, are nevertheless convinced in the existence of absolutes, as determined by their communions ( ibid).

We are, of necessity, a heterogeneous society, composed of a vast number of ethnic groups with opposing beliefs. This is far less the case among other cultures - for example, Islamic states, and , in particular, Japan, which are quite homogeneous as to ethnicity and cultural proclivities.

This was my point, and it is hardly a cheap shot, but of grave concern to many first amendment advocates. I think that if you perform even meager research into the religious trends in the United States, and consider our simultaneous fascination with, and aversion to, sexuality and violence ( which is self-evident ) you'll find the paradox and the hypocrisy. Consider that one fundamentalist televangelist fell from grace, and another managed to weep his way into being a rehabilitated Christian, after raping a woman in a hotel room, or consorting with prostitutes, respectively.

Lex, no matter how much you wish to view our society as being great and noble ( and in many respects it is), the literature - philosophic, historical, sociological, and political - does not support your thesis nor outrage that we are not a uniquely confused and torn people in matters of morality and ethics. It is saddening, not a source of amusement or derision.

I am, incidentally, an observant member of an orthodox Christian communion; I am not anti-religious, and hardly anti- American. I serve my church, and I've served this country, both of which I love and respect. I don't take "cheap shots" at those things I hold dear, and I don't make statements without foundation. If you wish, I will forward you references - as many as you wish - regarding my views. Some are flagrantly anti-religious, some very balanced, some fanatically pro-religion. All address the social issues discussed above, albeit from very different perspectives. It is from the more balanced studies that I've derived my views.

Regards, Craig. `

Lex (perpendicularity consultant) Jenkins , Sep 26, 2008; 06:41 a.m.

Craig, you have certain misapprehensions about not only my beliefs and philosophy, but my position as it relates to the core issue of this thread. In fact, the misconceptions are too numerous to address here since it is only marginally relevant to the thread.

BTW, grade school civics mostly turned out to be wrong. The U.S. didn't arise from the Puritans any more than wheat arose from breakfast cereal.

Phaedra Bateman , Sep 26, 2008; 12:03 p.m.

WOW, all I can say is that the bottom line of my original question, and start to this thread, is... what is considered "over the line" for this forum (photo.net) alone? Basically, if you want to post your porn maybe it should be on a different website.

I love all that is has spawned, interesting. Thank you :)P

Craig Unger , Sep 27, 2008; 12:15 a.m.

Lex:

I addressed the issues you raised, though I agree your point was obliquely related to the thrust of this thread. I don't have any "misapprehensions" about your views ( why would your opinion create apprehension - or misapprehension, whatever that means in this context - in me? ), nor misconceptions. You made a clear statement, I addressed it,at length. Your response is disingenuous...." I didn't say what you thought I said...you misunderstood me." No, I didn't. You simply have no rebuttal. Nice deflection , though. When the site moderators are at a loss, they typically claim to have been misunderstood, make snide and irrelevent remarks, or close the thread. You chose "misunderstanding" and "snide". I expect you'll close the thread now.

Lex, unbelievable as it may seem, you're not always correct. And by the way, the Puritans broke with the Anglican Church in 1633, and founded the Massechusetts Bay Colony - the earliest settlemnet in the what was to become the United States. Better check your history before employing simulated "fact" to try to make someone look foolish. It's generally acknowleged that the United States has both a strong Puritan and Calvinist ( Presbyterian ) ethic. If you disagree, take it up with the historians. Why don't you return to what you know...how you run the site with regard to perceptions of pornography. Then you'll be in your element. At the moment, you're pretty far afield and lost. Best Regards...

Lex (perpendicularity consultant) Jenkins , Sep 27, 2008; 12:49 a.m.

Craig, I'm not dismissing your viewpoint or being disrespectful about your opinions. I don't happen to agree with some of what you've said, but that's a different matter.

And, yes, you've misinterpreted not only my opinions on this specific matter but my views in general. None of which is particularly relevant to this thread. But I think you can trust me to know my own beliefs and opinions. There isn't enough time or place to even summarize them here tho', even if it was relevant.

The Anglocentric view of American history is the narrowest possible view of our diverse history and culture and applies only to a small segment commonly referred to as New England. I was raised in New York and well educated in this specific aspect of our history. It's true. And it's rubbish that it's the dominant influence. It overlooks the vast influences of the French, Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch, to name only the most well documented influences. Beyond that is an incredibly diverse and less well documented history of influences from the Norse, Africa and other regions. My direct namesake came across the pond in the 1600s as an indentured servant from Wales while in his teens. He knew nothing of the Puritans and likely could have cared less. Most of our people were unwelcome in New England after their indentured servitude was up and were even chased out of the Virginias. Along the way between Ohio, Tennessee and other parts we intermarried among Germans, American Indians and other cultures before settling in Texas where mutts and ne'er-do-wells thrive.

And that scarcely begins to refute your tenuous position that cheesy nudie cuties are unwelcome on photo.net because of some cliched WASP ethic that barely resembles America other than in those pop-up propaganda brochures pawned off as textbooks to indoctrinate the young and impressionable. If people find poorly exposed gynecological studies inappropriate for photo.net, they can find a thousand other reasons to object that have nothing to do with the theories you've posited which were outdated decades ago.

BTW, I don't moderate this particular forum. AFAIK, that's generally done by moderators who don't routinely participate here. I don't end discussions simply because someone disagrees with me. Give us a little credit.

Josh Root , Sep 27, 2008; 01:07 a.m.

Lex isn't closing the thread, I am.

It is far off topic and now has become pointless. Find somewhere else to argue.


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