uncommon leitz lens serial date info needed on folder camera

McKeown's lists the Perle as having several different lens/shutter combinations, but no Leitz lenses. I'm not that familiar with the Weltas, but I would guess that from what I read and your discription, that this is not original.

BTW, your pic does not come through.

Hi, Andrew I go along with Craig here, in that I doubt your Leitz Elmar is a kosher item for the Perle. Althugh Leitz did supply their lenses on occasion to other manufacturers, their trade prices must have been horrendous compared to equivalent Xenars and Tessars judging by the end results in consumer catalogs.

Talking of which, I've scanned a 1937 ad for the Perle from the Oz Welta importer's catalog. You'll see that we only got it with the f4.5 Meyer Trioplan or f2.9 Steinheil Cassar, but a check with my Kadlubek's Katalog shows it was also available in Germany with Xenar and Tessar lenses - but no Elmar, of course!

I decided to go through all the Welta cameras listed in KKKs just for the hell of it, and I have to pass on the bad news that none of them are listed with any form of Leitz lens option, although just about every other German lens maker's products are there in some form or another. (Pete In Perth)

Hmm, no damn picture! I was going to blame Bill Gates as per usual, but it seems several postee's pics are disappearing into cyberspace since the Photo Net computer revamp. Maybe the missing pics will appear shortly .................. (Pete In Perth)

Try this...

David

Andrew, This was discussed back in Feb. and still no clear answer for you, I see. Broken links to image, too.

David

The way I see it, You have a super lens on a great little camera. Use it and enjoy! I don't see any bad news there.

Andrew,

I am not a Leica guy, but there isn't a company that's been more under the lupe than Leitz. I am speculating here? But who did Leica sell this lens to.. there must be some kind of record? Who put this lens in this shutter.. if anybody? As the scale is in "feet", who (USA importer dealer, ) might of adapted this lens/shutter? The concensus seems to be it's not from Pearl/Perle /Welte so chasing the other clues seems obvious?

Craig my pic shows as attachment on my screen. Pete yours shows on screen to me.

pete you have an aussie welta catologue!! thats amazing! please,,, tell me how to get one!!! i have some german and euro ones but no ozzie.

i know of a couple of welta that were available with leitz lenses, a plate camera and a1939 weltini (i have one now) and i have some welta pearl's with most of the other lens combinations you mention as well.

this camera in question is on ebay now and has now hit record high prices for such a camera...obviously i collect the welta cameras (because no one else did and they are normaly cheap LOL) and was interested in purchasing it but it is just getting to high and ridiculous for such a camera, not to mention it doesn't look quite right!

i dont recall discussing this before david, maybe it was something simular. i asked about this camera and lens because it has just shown up on ebay and was hoping that someone may know how to date the lens...this type of serial number doesn't show up on the normal leica lens serial number charts is all...cheers andrew

Andrew,

I agree with your assessment of authenticity. Although the serial number isn't too far off. One of my Elmars is engraved about 130,000 or so from 1932. It's close to the number on a Vollenda that's on eBay as well, but none have the "F". However, as you pointed out, the lens mount blocks the Compur shutter markings and it certainly doesn't look original. Elmar's were costly optional lenses and it wouldn't have been fit like that, IMO. If it was fit to the shutter by someone, the question is whether the rest of the optics are also present, not just the front cell focusing. The general rule is if it isn't original, it probably isn't worth much.

Ciao

David

Different from most shutters with front lens element focussing lenses of that era, this one does not have a stop tab on the focus ring and no visible stop post on the shutter cover. Since the position of the stop post has to match the radius of the stop tab (or hidden stop groove in case of a larger front lens element ring), I think that this lens was originally fitted to the shutter. It would mean quite a bit of work to add an extra stop pin in case th

Andrew, It seams you are not the only one about. Same happened with this guy.But as Cliff say: Enjoy it.

I'm with the doubters on this, it looks all too messy, shutter looks to have been originally for 2,8/2,9 lens like Trinar which did not obscure Compur name, no index mark for focussing and I think by the time Welta started fitting rim set compurs they had dropped the key wind in favour of knob wind. Why would Leitz make a special production lens for a camera of that quality ? They do not sem to have supplied it to any other manufacturer or used it themselves that is known. And the engraving looks cramped, when short of space E. rather than Ernst was normally used, or was that just pot luck ?

i agree it just looks messy and unlikely leitz would of supplied it as messy as what it is and as david mentioned when a leitz lens was offered on a welta is was a costly option. for example the Welta Weltini in 1938-early 39 when supplied with a f2,8 xenar was RM165, f2,8 Tessar RM185, a f3,5 Elmar RM185 and a f2.0Xenon RM195.

so in the case of a 1932-35 Welta Perle (this camera shouldn't be later than that as it is a rounded flat end body-in 1935 they changed to the angled body as shown in Peter's broucher) i would expect that a leitz lens, if offered would most likely have been offered with the helical focusing model of the Perle available then (a more expensive and better option). i have one with a xenar and it was available with tessar as well. although, all the lens options were available in front focusing.

Phil i am definitely doubting its origonality to the camera, although not necessarily that it is a fake leitz lens, although i see where you are comming from. It didn't inspire any further confidence either, after i asked the seller a few questions on some of the points we have made about where/and how the lens focus stops etc, and also what that engraving on the focus ring is near the (just above the) 'C' for 'Compur' on the shutter-it looks to be a few small numbers (perhaps 19xx). he only replied with only the words; 'i dont know. seems original' ignoring all the other questions i asked. the film wind key and rim set shutter on this year/model camera doesn't concern me at all; it is quite normal, i have many other welta of this type of vintage that have the same, although they changed to the wind knob in 1935 on the perle there was still various welta models (garant, symbol and trio) that used the wind key as late as 39.

this camera is in less than good shape too! and at near $600 so far in the bidding it is a ridiculous amount even if it was mint and genuine--i suspect a bit of shill bidding here! it seems just too hard to believe there would be people (aparently only 2 seperate bidders) out there willing to pay such an amount-and so early in the bidding!

tar david for the info-yeah i see, it is around the right number now that you point it out--that vollenda looks in nice nik too--pricy tho!! and been there for a looooong time eh

Hi, Andrew My 1937 Oz Welta importer's catalog (or cattledog as we tend to call 'em Down Under) is not an exclusively Welta publication, mate. It was published by Herbert Small Pty Ltd who were the Oz importers of all sorts of good stuff in those pre-war days, such as Leitz, AGFA, Zeiss, Foth, Voigtlander, Ihagee, Franke und Heide - and of course Welta.

I don't want to give you the impression these publications are still common here today, because they're not - I had to dig deep on Fleabuy Oz to get this one ahead of several other motivated collectors. However, it was worth it because it's 72 pages are cram full of interesting ads about cameras and accessories from those days.

The pages dealing with Welta cams cover the Perle, Trio, Perfekta, Weltur, Weltini and Welti. Each is a full page per camera, as per the Perle one I scanned above. Seeing as you're clearly a confirmed Weltaholic, if you'd like scans of the other pages email me at pnaylor@iinet.net.au.

BTW, those prices quoted in the Perle ad of say "Pnds 9 - 0 - 0" for the f4.5 Trioplan configured version, are in Oz Pnds not UK ones. AFAIK, a 1937 Oz Pound was worth about 80% of a UK one, so that means about four US greenbacks to an Oz Pnd rather than the five to a Brit Pnd, if you or anybody else are trying to do some price comparisons. (Pete In Perth)