Ricoh GR Digital - Moriyama - Glorious Grain?

Mitch, why did you go to afrika via singapore? i thought you were based in bangkok

-stu/san quentin

Hi Mitch

I use the GR-D

The RAW is tooooooooo slow unfortunately, so I use jpg. The "high iso noise" is fantastic (as in artistic) I use it a lot on 1600 iso. I often use the camera in snapshot focus mode. That way I don't get the annoying shutterlag, or the autofocus noise. Have fun. Toke

Stu:

>>>why did you go to afrika via singapore? i thought you were based in bangkok<<<

There are currently no fdirect lights from Bangkok to Johannesburg, but Thai will start flying this route in October. Actually, I was in Sydney and could not get a seat on the Qantas/South African airways flight to Jo'burg, and had to take Singapore Airlines instead.

--Mitch/Lubumbashi

Fair enough, although dont spend too much time in goatsville. Get down to Durban- top notch town

Look forward to your pics with the grd.

I shoot jpgs with it. RAW's a pain in the ass to wait for...

Stu:

Here are a few pictures as examples, not for their artistic qualities;

And another one

Shooting RAW hasn't been practical for me. Noise isn't any better in RAW either. I will shoot SOME things in RAW for experimentation though.

jmp

Sorry, I'll try to get the last one to display directly...

And the 3rd one that I cannot resist posting because, although not successful, takes me in a new direction: exposure -- 1 second at f/2.4 (ISO200). Shot in an underground copper mine.

--Mitch/Lubumbashi

I meant to write: "1 second, hand-held".

Kei:

1. Are you shooting in B&W or in color and then converting to B&W?

2. Are you shooting in JPG or RAW mode?

3. How big have you printed?

--Mitch/Lubumbashi

(1) shooting color and converting to BW

(2) shooting jpgs (don't have the patience to shoot RAW)

(3) haven't made any prints yet but will try some tonight. I've only got an A4 printer but I'm sure they'd look good at that size.

Is it just me that thinks Kei's pictures are great? If you've got more, I'd love to see them!

Ian

kei... your images are stunning. what iso are you shooting at? i've had the gr-d for a couple of months now and it has become the digital replacement for my old hexar af. i don't even think about bringing my canon dslr gear out of the house when i'm shooting for myself anymore.

kei.. just checked the exif data on your shots. iso 800. real nice.

I prefer to shoot RAW, even though it is slow. Also, I have been experimenting IR with the Hoya R72 filter. I like the results very much.

Ian and David, thanks :P

Ian, you can see some more here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/keinak/sets/72057594087660318/

Thanks for the link Kei, really good stuff. I've bookmarked it in the hopes of seeing more!

Ian

Wow... very nice. Contrasty and grainy--I like it!

Great stuff Kei. I have been considering whether to jump in and buy one of these, and your shots are pushing me closer to the edge!

I currently use a digital SLR and I'm finding it difficult to work around the bulk and mirror slap when it comes to street or candids in quiet places. I would also like something to fit in a pocket and take places where the DSLR is a chore to carry.

The problem I have with current compact cameras is that while they may have less noise than the GRD, it is obvious that the noise has only been processed away and replaced with a smeary, painterly mess. I find that noise looks better in prints than the horrible effects of noise reduction.

I have looked at some of the ISO 1600 samples and while they're quite noisy, the grain is quite uniform and seems to be spread equally over the colour channels. When converted to black and white, it actually looks very much like film grain. This is a much better effect than the blotchy low-frequency smeary images that even some DSLRs make.

Does anyone know where I might find some RAW files taken at high ISO?

Kei, I would also be very interested to know how the prints at A4 turn out. This is my normal print size, and if it can handle it ok, I think my mind may be made up :-)

Thanks guys. D White - at high ISO's, you can turn off the noise reduction. BTW, the A4 prints came out fine. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to print beyond this either.

>>>I don't see why you shouldn't be able to print beyond this either.<<<

In my experience, if A4 prints are okay, one can go much, much larger because the viewing distance is also larger: the normal viewing distance is twice the pciture's diagonal. Incidentally, a little over a week ago, on my way to Africa, I saw the Moriyma exhibition at the Sydney Biennale (Gallery of NSW): the prints are magnficint -- 100x150 cm (40x60 inches) and most or all were taken with the Ricoh GR-1.

--Mitch/Lubumbashi

great pics kei.

Can someone with the camera describe the " snapshot focus mode" that Toke mentions using? I wasn't able to discern from the specs what that setting did exactly. I presume it is some fixed-focus mode... but does that also mean it forces a small aperture to maximize depth-of-field?

I have been experimenting with grain in GRD monochrome images. I published an entry on this to my blog:

(link)

My conclusion is that RAW is not better than jpeg unless you spend a lot of time and effort and even then probably not noticeable.

I just got my GRD as a replacement for my clux-1. As far as I can determine, the 'snap' setting fixes the focus at one specific distance from the lens (I think it is 8 feet). But in reality, because of the extreme DOF, anything 4 feet away will be 'in focus'. This is if you set the aperature at f2.4, of course the smaller the f stop the greater the DOF.

It is GREAT small digital and at ISO 1600 jpeg in BW mode, it is very 'flm noir' and more than acceptable because it just looks like high speed film grain.

great stuff Mitch!

they look like real pictures! lol

still got my GR1 although I hardly use it now - would love the GRD

keep posting the pics, I have also bookmarked your page to keep track

regards JohnL

this thread is now officially famous.......

http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/

robert

Some more excellent examples: Ricoh GR-D

kei... how do you turn off the noise reduction when using high iso. i can't find that one in the manual. thanks.

Hi guys, I tried to post this in T.O.P., but I was "moderated" (censored). Sincerely, I find this thread funny. It's a tipical case of what's called "reduction of distortion" (or something like that) in marketing terms. It's when a customer needs to feel good with the money he spent on something so he invents justifications to it. In this case, the supposed "grain like" quality of GR-D high iso noise. Come ooooon!!!! It's simply noise!! Of course in b&w has more appeal, but it's noise. Based on the several examples here (including the amazing pictures from Kei), I can't see any magic in the quality of the noise, it looks like noise. I don't think Ricoh got the grial of diminutive sensor technology. But this camera is clearly targeted (please, no offense) to the photo snob. Yes, you pay 2, 3 or 4 times more to get less. You get a fixed 5mm lens, with a not so fast 2.4 aperture (but you know, it's "magic" it's tack sharp, and it's a prime, of course, serious photographers don't use zooms, you amateur). There's a lot of zoom digicams with an aperture of 2.8 in the wide end for less money, but since they are consumer cheap digicams, they're not worth it. Just pay three times more and get the same sensor but less versatility to feel a serious photographer. Now you're a digital HCB!!! I mean, I'm plenty sure you guys on this thread would discarded a cheaper camera with the exact amount and class of noise as "unacceptable noise", "unusable above 400 iso", but since you paid simply too much, you need to romantisize it, make it "pro" and special. Maybe being in the red dot forum has to do with it. I love Moriyama, and own books with his work, but he uses the film version of the camera. Obviously, he talked well about the digital version, but he uses film. So, don't feel "I'm like Daido". Well, sorry, just needed to say that. By the way, I would like to own one, but with at least a 3x zoom and a $300 price (that's what it's worth imho). And I don't have nothing against primes. I shot exclusively with them for 6 years, got my first zoom with my digicam, so I'm not an anti-prime guy, I'm just anti-snob. Regards,

If if I buy the grd, im a snob?

lol

with regards to "digital film grain", im no expert. But i don't see anything wrong with trying to reproduce film-like grains in digital modules, since to me, that's where the grail is. I think the degree of success of such mimicking(sp)is dependent on how you convert from colour to b/w in PS. I have some actions in PS for converting colour jpeg to b/w for my Ricoh GX 5mp. Not perfect, but pretty decent. What do you expect? film exactly?! Here's a attached file. If anyone is keen on the action, please email me. ;)

>>>It's simply noise!! Of course in b&w has more appeal, but it's noise.<<<

You may say what you wish, and I've no problem with you calling it noise: what I'm interested in is how it looks; and to me it looks very much like film grain. You can look at my shot above at ISO1600, which does look like film at 1600. And Kei's shots above at 800 also look like film grain. Pretty good for "noise." In my, admittedly, limited experience with digital cameras I haven't seen other ones that produces such grain-like noise.

--Mitch/Lubumbashi

Here is an interesting posting on the type of "grain" the GR-D produces at ISO800 in RAW versus JPG mode. The conclusion is that the GR-D's RAW to JPG conversion engine does a better job at producing attractive pictures than working with the RAW files.

(link)

--Mitch/Lubumbashi

For those interested in seeing the quality possible with the GR-D, have a look at John Carolan's slideshow at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johncarolan/sets/72057594056344136/

--Mitch/Lubumbashi

I've been following this thread with great interest. I've been looking for a compact that would just serve as an always have along when carrying the DSLR was inconvient. The comments on the Ricoh seem that it is that and much more. My question is... Did you buy the optional optical view finder? If not, how is using the LCD to compose?

Thanks for responding

Mike

Mike:

I didn't buy it because I have the Voigtlander 28VF back in Bangkok, which I'll try when I get back at the end of the week. I sort of like using the LCD but it's not ideal if you use reading glasses as I do.

--Mitch/Lubumbashi

i bought the optical viewfinder and i must say i love it.

I also have the viewfinder. It is pretty nice, but expensive. There are cheaper alternatives so I hear. I also like using the screen which is a surprise to me. If you use the viewfinder you can turn off the screen to save on batteries.

Glorious Grain?

Why? digital,film are both very nice choices in their own way. Why are you all seeking the sameness from both. Sort of like lemmings doing the same thing over and over again to the end of time.

Boring.

digital "grain?" kinda like "tofurkey."

How many shots per charge are you getting on the standard battery pack?

I love Tofurkey, especially with melted cheese.

mmmm...yummm (^_*)

Some people care about photography, some think their bozo posts are funny.

I'm hoping someone that's interested in photography rather than stupid jokes is still reading, because I am interested in battery life. Kei? Mitch?

re: battery life...

I don't have one, but this review says "about 230 shots", although with no indication of how much image reviewing, whether they shot with the LCD on, etc.

j

Jeff:

I don't know yet because the first (and still only) time I had to change the battery was after I did a ROM upgrade, which apparently uses a lot of power. Perhaps Kei canb respond.

You're right this thread was fine intil the usual Leica Forum Bozo's came in.

--Mitch/Lubumbashi

Sorry guys - can't believe this thread is still going :P

Jeff, the battery life really depends. Someone posted that it was for 235 shots and I remember reading the same somewhere. I haven't tested it or anything but I've used it for a day of full on shooting without any probs. If you turn of the LCD in back it'll last longer. There is a function to do this is you are using the external VF.

It's quite small. Not gr-1 small but it's still a small pocketable cam - way smaller than the Hexar AF. The grip/feel of it is great too. RAW does take a while, but I, as well as a friend of mine who uses it quite a bit, find the jpegs to be fine. You can turn off the noise reduction so there's no smearing. I'll check back if there are any more q's.

GRD Batteries: I have shot over 200 pictures in an afternoon on one battery with the viewfinder and the LCD off, but with the camera on most of the time. I think the manual says 250. The battery indicator did go down into the last third, but the camera was still working. I always carry a few AAA batteries as a backup, but they don't last long (<50 shots).

Agree with Mark re battery life. About 200 shots with charged battery and normal 'chimping'. I also use aaa batteries as backup. 4 aaa's store nicely in a film cannister - that is 100 shots. The GRD has been the perfect companion to my M7.

I live in the tropics, so your shots your be less in cooler places.

I bought the Voigtl䥮der 28mm viewfinder in black metal. Found a second hand one cheap. Usually turn off the lcd, and compose through the ext viewfinder. Saves on battery. Snapshot mode is fixed focus at 3 meters as far as I remember. No autofocus noise or delay. With my SD card RAW takes 13 seconds, so I shoot jpg, which is fine. Toke

kei... how do you turn off the noise reduction? i can't find that in the menus. thanks.

Mitch

What is the price different of the GR between Bangkok and Singapore? I once played with the GR during a photo fair in Bangkok, but the BW pics in this post really interest in the GR-D

Seth:

I've no idea what the Bangkok price is, as I bought it on an impulse when I spent a day in Singapore.

--Mitch/Lubumbashi

"I bought the Voigtl?der 28mm viewfinder in black metal. Found a second hand one cheap. Usually turn off the lcd, and compose through the ext viewfinder. Saves on battery. Snapshot mode is fixed focus at 3 meters as far as I remember. No autofocus noise or delay. With my SD card RAW takes 13 seconds, so I shoot jpg, which is fine. Toke"

Does the CV finder block the flash?

I thought about buying the Ricoh GR Digital, but because of the bad reviews about nosie, was hesitant. I would like an option to be able to turn the noise off. Ricoh Should have addressed the noise issue before putting out the camera to the customer.I do think people are justifying the noise. Yeah, it looks good in some pictures, but what if i dont want it at all? Your stuck with an expensive camera that won't produce noiseless photos. Seems hardly fair considering the price you pay for one of these cameras. I trust DPReview and Steve' Didgicam websites. They have been quite accurate in what is desirable and wanted in a digital camera. I wish Ricoh would come out with an improved version to address the noise issue.

I thought about buying the Ricoh GR Digital, but because of the bad reviews about nosie, was hesitant. I would like an option to be able to turn the noise off. Ricoh Should have addressed the noise issue before putting out the camera to the customer.I do think people are justifying the noise. Yeah, it looks good in some pictures, but what if i dont want it at all? Your stuck with an expensive camera that won't produce noiseless photos. Seems hardly fair considering the price you pay for one of these cameras. I trust DPReview and Steve' Didgicam websites. They have been quite accurate in what is desirable and wanted in a digital camera. I wish Ricoh would come out with an improved version to address the noise issue.

I have just ordered and paid for a GR-Digital Creative set (includes 21mm convertor and 21/28mm finder and filter adaptor)

I am expecting them at the end of the week.

I too read the DPreview and others. However what I am particlarly impressed by is feedback from actual users and posted results from actual users. (On lots of different websites as well as PN) This always counts for more than lab test results or comparisons with A vs B when the person has not gone into the field to use A or B in the way they were intended to be used.

Quality of lens and ergonomics and ease of use (for someone who is used to manual control of parameters) is more important to me.

I have a Panasonic DMC-FX01 for casual 'low involvement' snapping and a D70 for the times I must use a DSLR.

The GR-Digital actually seems like quite good value when you consider it will have a high quality 28mm f/2.4 and a 21mm f/2.4 lens and it takes filters and offers manual control of aperture and shutter speed without using menus.

Testimony from real users suggests that the noise associated with higher ISO speeds is comparable to B&W film grain and the evidence supports that. Evidence also that it makes a good infra-red shooter (with a suitable 37mm filter) This appeals to me also.

Now all I need to do is wait for it to arrive!

Based upon this thread (and others) I bought the GR-D last week. I bought it for 312? which is appr. the same as I would have to pay for a Fuji F30 (which I bought too) Anyway when the digital crowd proclaimes a digital product as sh*t this is when I want to check it out. The gr-d I think is a fantastic camera which gives you the opprtunity to disguise that you shoot digital. The noise/grain at 400 and 800 translate into the most beautiful grain you can find, tweaking the image further in CS2 produces beatuful images at all sizes. It's a pleasure to hold and handle, it's production quality is pretty good. It isn't spectacular camera by all means, but nice for an ex-leica M-shooter. I also had the 28 voigtländer finder which performs well with the finder-les GR-d. All in all at it's curent prices of around 350? it is a pleasurable digital camera which i can reckomend to anyone wanting to shoot digital with a diffenrece

"312?" What currency was that given in?