Lyson Daylight Darkroom vs. MIS UT7 for Epson 2200

George,

Have you tried using Harrington's Quadtone RIP?

http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

I use it with the 2200's 'stock' inkset on matt papers and am very pleased with the results. I've also used the MIS UT2 inkset and QTR with the 1280 and found the output to be nearly identical to the 2200UC w/QTR. Keep in mind I normally contact print in platinum so I have a bias towards warm tones on matt surfaces.

If you're looking for the 'silver' look (ie. 'repro' glossy output) then I don't believe either the lyson or mis would suit.

Cheers, Roger....

I concur with Roger. I'm in the process of evaluating B&W solutions for my 2200 and have found that using Quadtone RIP, there is almost no difference in the quality of prints you can make with the stock Epson inks versus the MIS Ultratone inkset. Highlights are a touch smoother and more "dotless" using the Ultratone set, which uses four shades of gray, than the Epson Ultrachromes with only two shades. But without a loupe, it's very hard to tell them apart.

-Jon

I believe a very significant factor is the factory support, user support, developed workflows, and developed curves for the MIS inks. That may develop some day for the new Lyson inkset but it doesn't exist today. When I have a question relating to workflows using MIS inks, I can think of 30-40 people I can ask for help. And, an active community to post to. With the new Lyson ink set, it's a very long shot.

Digital b&w printing certainly is not an out of the box proposition. I recommend letting some very experienced printmakers work out the kinks in an inkset. You don't want to be debugging workflows while you're also learning from scratch.

Lastly, if any ink supplier told me they were getting a D-Max of 4+, I would never again trust anything they told me. That's like the new "wonder developer" that gives Tri-X the grain of TechPan, perfect tonality and a true iso of 3200.

I have been running an MIS system on my 2100 for the last 9 months. Very very happy with the results. Indistinguishable from the original Epson inks. Physically MIS and Lysons systems are almost identical but MIS is less than half the price of the Lyson sytem (the current exchange rate helps as I am in the UK). I have found the people at MIS to be very helpful and extremely efficient. The only problem I have had is a leaky cartridge but no doubt that will be sorted with a phone call.

Wow, my first question on photo.net and immediate responses. Thank you so much. I believe I'll steer away from Lyson then at this stage, but if Quadtone Rip only uses two inks can the tonal gradation really be indistinguishable from four with MIS, and I read that MIS inks have more longevity. The carbon is more stable isn't it? What are Epsons blacks made from? Again, thank you soo much, George

Don't confuse the Daylight Darkroom with the other Lyson inks or with the MIS or Cone inks. It is supposed to be a very different approach and uses archival dye inks and special papers instead of the carbon based pigment inks that Cone and MIS use. I have been using the Cone pigment inks for 4 years, since thay came out, and recently switched to the MIS inks to be able to print from sepia to cold tone with the same ink set. The Cone and MIS inks are almost indistinquishable from each other, both work very well with mat papers. I have the Daylight Darkroom on order but it has not been available yet. Until the DD is readily available there is no way to know which way to go. It will of course depend on personal preference. If the DD works like is claimed, it should be a very different look then the Cone/MIS. I can tell you that neither the Cone nor MIS systems look like silver prints. They look more like platinum but with higher contrast. The warm inks are particularly nice in my opinion. If the DD inks truly look like traditional glossy silver prints as they claim, it will be another creative tool for artistic expression and will look very different from the Cone/MIS. I personally can't choose between the two as the look should be very different.

I've been using the MIS UT2s with my 2200 for about a year. They work very well. I usually print on matte papers, but have been playing with "toning" on Ilford Smooth Pearl. You will be able to see a difference between these inks and Epson's. I'm using InkJet Control/Open Printmaker. IJC allows you to make your own profiles and really tweak the inks. Open Printmaker is free, so check it out:

http://www.bowhaus.com/news/ijcnews.htm

It's not that QTR with the Epson inks is indistinguishable from the MIS UTs, but it's a lot closer than what you might expect. Since QTR is free to try, I'd definitely recommend experimenting with the Epson inks first.

I'm personally trying to decide if the slightly better highlight tonality of the quad set is worth the dual inconvenience of not being able to print color and needing to mail order all my inks.

-Jon

Again, thanx. Does anyone have a conviction about longevity and carbon pigment vs. Epson inks? George

Jon, You say that OPM is free, but I don't see any mention of that on the Bowhaus site.

John

According to the Wilhelm Research results for the Epson 4000, which uses the same inks as the 2200, B&W print longevity ranges from 75-200 years depending on the paper used.

MIS inks showed a minimal change after 600 hours of testing on four papers, which they claim is equivalent to about 90 years in Wilhelm's testing. Most of the changes were in the cool toners, which would imply that overall print won't fade much, but will gradually get slightly warmer over time.

It's an apples-to-oranges comparison since two different testing procedures were used, but I think it's safe to conclude that both the Epson and the MIS inks are near the state of the art for archival ink technologies.

-Jon

"I have been running an MIS system on my 2100 for the last 9 months. Very very happy with the results. Indistinguishable from the original Epson inks"

Does this include the metamerism problems"?

I've not seen any problems with metamerism on the 2200/UC/QTR or the 1280/UT2/QTR with matt papers. Again I prefer a warm tone palette and use a standard platinum print as my comparison. Perhaps someone printing on glossy papers with the PK inks might?

Roger, I visited your web site and love your images. Question. Your "carbon pigment ink" prints, are these your digital prints? Not carbon tissue, like Bostick&Sullivan, right? How were these done? George

Again Roger, they look like your platinum prints

George,

Thanks for the compliment. Yes the 'carbon pigment ink' prints are made on the inkjet. BTW, the scans on my site are a mix of prints made on either the 2200/UC/QTR and the 1280/UT2/QTR - granted they're 'straight web scans' but fwiw it's impossible to tell between them.

I did try the B+S carbon tissue - didn't quite get the hang of it but more importantly, for me, transfers made onto fixed out gelatin silver fibre paper had too much of a family resemblance to 'straight silver prints'. While it's a wonderful process - and I'm fortunate to have one of Sandy King's beautiful prints - it's not a look I was personally looking to achieve.

Cheers, Roger...

Roger, I don't mean to be a bother with all my questions, forgive me. Is the carbon in the inks the same basic stuff as in the tissue and do the inks have relatively the same stability / lifespan?Are they just two different processes for applying the same basic material, on different substrates? Regards, George

George,

Good question. The processes are different - inkjet being photomechanical, carbon tissue being an image transfer. As I understand it carbon is in itself inert and because of this can't be made into different 'colours'. The carbon pigments in an inkjet are 'toned' with dye to give it the various colours. It is the dye and type of paper one prints on that determines longevity. It's also the reason why printing 'black only' on 100% cotton paper purportedly gives the most 'archival' output. Carbon 'tissue' is also available in different 'colours' - what or how the tone is acheived is a question that begs to be asked. Of course I could be blowing steam out my ears - I'm certainly not an expert. Perhaps someone knowledgeable in chemistry could shed some light on this?

Thank you very much Roger, you've been very helpful . Sincerely, George

George, unless you are in a rush to begin I would wait until more info (especially third-party reviews) is available on the Lyson Daylight Darkroom system.

One thing I noticed in reading this thread is that no one here (unless I missed it) has actually seen a print from this new system. I have one, and I'm telling you this is different from any other digital b/w print that I have seen. I have prints created by several artists from every currently available digital b/w printing method. This sample print (from Lyson USA) is practically indistiguishable from a traditional silver-gelatin wet darkroom print. You really have to see it to believe it. There is no sign of metamerism, no sign of color, no bronzing. This print is dead neutral. And this is on glossy paper. Every digital printing method I have seen on glossy paper, even when using a high-quality RIP such as ImagePrint (which I use when printing color) gives the impression that the ink is sitting on top of the paper (which it is). This sample print from the Daylight Darkroom system shows no signs of this property. The image looks as if it is in the paper, not on top of it. Again, you really have to see it to believe it.

The only third-party review of Lyson's Daylight Darkroom system that I am aware of has just come out in the current (May/June) issue of Photo Techniques magazine. The author (Jeff Dorgay) gives this system a very positive review.

[Just for some perspective from where I am coming from on this issue: I shoot both digital (Nikon) and 4x5. I scan my LF negatives on a Polaroid 45 SprintScan Ultra dedicated film scanner. I then print on Hahnmuhle Photo Rag paper with PiezoTone inks, using an Epson 7600 with the StudioPrint RIP. With it's individual control over each ink position, StudioPrint allows the user an infinite number of toning possibilities when using, for example, PiezoTone Selenium and Carbon Sepia inks. There are numerous answers to the subjective question, What is the best digital b/w printing system? But, in my opinion, this system represents the current state-of-the-art in digital b/w printing.]

George, I think the Lyson Daylight Darkroom system really is different. And from what I have seen with my own eyes, the digital b/w printing bar may well have been raised. And the aforementioned reviewer in Photo Techniques agrees. This bears checking out for someone who is looking to take the plunge into high quality digital b/w printing.

I'm printing with the Lyson Daylight Darkroom system with my Epson 2200 and the prints look amazing. Feel amazing too--the darkroom gloss paper really does resemble fiber enlarging paper. The surface is wonderful. The blacks really are deep and intense. I'm a big fan. The software is a bit lame and could use improvement, but it does the job. If you want beautiful prints, use the inks with the profiles and the Lyson paper and you'll be happy. Just make sure you read the instructions that come with the inks, regarding getting those rollers out of the way--the ink dries slow, so any rollers will leave big marks (the "pizza wheels" don't affect the print, luckily).

Hi, I sheepishly rescind my praise for the Lyson Daylight Darkroom inks. Yes, the blacks are incredible, the midtones are nice, and the darkroom gloss paper bears an uncanny resemblance to Fiber-based enlarging paper from the good ol' wet darkroom. But the metamerism is TERRIBLE! I don't know if this bothers me more than other people. It's not any worse than the 2200 inks normally are (the color inks), but it's just as bad. Walk from tungsten into daylight and the prints turn GREEN! Aweful! This was not a problem with the Lyson quadtone inks I had loaded in my 890, because they were neutral tone only--these newer Lyson inks include color for "toning" your print. It's total bullshit. Unfortunately, Lyson does not make a "neutral only" set of 7 inks. After spending $$, I'm going to ditch this system. I just want monochrome! Oh well, my mistake-- a learning experience. Don't make this mistake, if metamerism bothers you.