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Is anyone still using a Selenium light meter?


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I just wrote in another thread about the coupled meter to a Canon VI rangefinder.

It couples to the shutter speed knob, and also fits into the usual case.

 

The one I have, not the original one, works some of the time, and when it doesn't

tapping on the side usually restores it.

-- glen

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I just wrote in another thread about the coupled meter to a Canon VI rangefinder.

It couples to the shutter speed knob, and also fits into the usual case.

 

The one I have, not the original one, works some of the time, and when it doesn't

tapping on the side usually restores it.

If tapping brings it back to life, it's not the selenium cell that is bad (main focus of this thread).

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I have a Sekonic L8 Director, tiny selenium meter from around 1960 which is accurate enough in brighter conditions.

Also a Euromaster which is much more sensitive and agrees with my Gossen Profisix to within a half stop over a wide range. Which one is correct?

 

At the end of the day my Profisix is not getting any younger so I may as well use it when a separate meter is called for. I also have the 7.5 / 15 degree Tele attachment and the very bulky Profispot 1 degree attachment for the Gossen so this gear gets the nod if required.

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I have a Westen Master II that was included with an old Kodak Pony 35 camera I bought recently. The Pony 35 is early 50s Kodak tech. Never really paid much attention to the Westen until yesterday, when I took it outside and played around with it some. I was surprised to find that it was within about a stop of being correct. Not bad, considering the meter must be almost 70 years old. A well-made piece of kit, built to last.

 

I also own a Zeiss Super Ikonta BX (6x6 film camera). The BX is a B with a selenium meter. This camera's meter deflects the needle somewhat, but that's about it. No big deal, I've always used handheld meters with my Super Ikontas anyway.

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  • 1 year later...
On 12/22/2021 at 12:06 PM, rick_drawbridge said:

John Seaman said :

 

I'd agree with that. There are horses for courses; the old Weston Euromaster is fine for walkabouts in the daylight, but when the light diminishes I'd resort to the bulky but sensitive and accurate Gossens Luna Pro. In my opinion, the prettiest and most pocketable selenium meter created was the Zeis Ikon Ikophot, two versions of which I've pictured below. Remarkably, both are still working, and reasonably accurate.

 

1455795525_ZeissIkophotscopy.thumb.jpg.0b3a741f52eaaf5452bc46292b728da5.jpg

I recently got an Ikophot and was quite happily surprised to find it so small, even compared to the compact Sekonic L-308S. And the classic looking Ikophot is still working and accurate, within 1/5 stop of the Sekonic. I guess I will be using it more with the CMCs.

 

Ikophot and Sekonic 308s Large.jpeg

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If film and processing were cheaper, the strong likelihood of inaccuracy wouldn't matter so much. However, in 2023. relic meters are a crap shoot. Exceptions don't prove the rule. If I were buying, I'd get the newest meter I could afford and the Ikophot wouldn't be on my short list!

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Simply using one makes me feel good.. Though they are often not really accurate. I have Weston IV ..the word "mostly" accurate gets bandied about and this fits for this meter. Some others too.. the one in the Zenith 11 is ok.  When the Contaflex Meter "works"  ie reacts to light ..it seems to be ok.. but it often doesn't work at all. I have two Zeiss Ikon consumer cameras Contessa-mat -LKE??   from the mid sixties I suppose. I haven't used in a long time ..one was uncoupled meter/RF, which IIRC was ok and the other was the "Trap Needle" type with only three shutter settings when on Auto -definitely low-end.
I have two Weston "Master" -715 and a Sekonic.; all of them are easily 2-3stops off Many of my CDS meters are equally inaccurate and barely agree with one another. It's a dilema..who do you trust? Also generally< speaking with negative film there is a margin of error..but still?!?

 

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On 1/25/2023 at 4:25 PM, chuck_foreman1 said:

Simply using one makes me feel good.. Though they are often not really accurate. I have Weston IV ..the word "mostly" accurate gets bandied about and this fits for this meter.

I agree that old Weston meters have a charm and both a visual and tactile appeal. 

As far as reliability is concerned - just some observations from my experience with them. 

Some may dismiss 'anecdotal' accounts, but if you see enough meters a pattern tends to emerge. Personally, I've had more than a few Weston Masters pass through my hands to see a pattern. Speaking from that experience I would say that the 'iconic' status of Weston IV, V and EuroMaster meters is decidedly undeserved. 

All of Weston meters from the mk iv onwards were fitted with an inferior selenium cell that almost invariably loses sensitivity after a few years. A bold statement, but witness all the previous posters that say their late-series Westons have had to be re-celled (a service that's no longer available). I can add the dozens of later series Weston Masters I've looked at and rejected - being simply 'dead' or abysmally failing a simple accuracy check.

My lengthy search for a fully operational 'mint' Weston V proved fruitless, and I gave up the search years ago. 

OTOH, I have a small collection of Weston ii and iii meters that are all working perfectly. A comparison of the selenium cells between early and later models shows a clear difference, both in cell colour and in the thickness of protective varnish applied. With the newer cells having a blue, rather than brownish colour and a barely visible (non-existent?) protective coating applied. 

In short; Weston's older cells are far more robust and long-lasting. 

So if you're in the market for a Weston meter, get a mk-iii. That was the first model to be calibrated in ASA/ISO speeds, and the last to use the decent brown selenium cell. Downside is that the incident light kit - consisting of both a diffuser and range shifting ND filter - is difficult to find. 

WRT to poor cell contact: the cell in all Weston Masters is firmly held in place by a strongly-sprung contact ring. It does not work loose unless the meter has been severely abused. It certainly shouldn't be loose to the point of moving at a finger tap. However, the contacts may oxidise over time, but this is usually easily fixed by gently pressing on the plastic dimpled lens over the cell and giving a it a slight twisting action. OTOH a poor connection or sticky action to the mechanical meter movement might well respond to a gentle knock, but would indicate that the meter movement needs attention - cleaning probably.

My advice would be to steer clear of Weston IV, V and Euro Master models. And of any meter with a moving-coil indicator in general. There's too much to go wrong. Old electrical equipment of any sort is generally bound to fail eventually, and newer gear is usually far more reliable... getting less so with age. 

Edited by rodeo_joe1
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I have a pair of selenium meters which both work perfectly well; a Hanimex Sekonic (identical to a Type L8, I believe) and a Horvex III. Both of them read to within half a stop of whatever's showing on the Luna-Pro or any camera meter I compare them against.

I must admit I was quite surprised at this. However, even throwing one into a film camera bag I'd double check either with the camera, S16 or Luna, depending on the day. I suspect the selenium meters aren't totally reliable in lowering conditions.

I have a Petri and a couple of Voigtlanders with working selenium meters, but other faults.

There's a selenium one on my Bessamatic, and it moves the needle to where it should be but I've never put a film through it to make sure. Of course, it would be subject to verification beforehand.

It seems to me that selenium cells of good quality that have been protected in cases for years, show very little sign of deterioration.

Edited by Farside
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As I understand it, selenium cells have selenium on an iron base (one contact) and a thin gold layer on the front.

There is, then, a pattern of thicker gold leading to the front contact.

Exactly how wires contact the front and back is dependent on the actual design.

Some seem better than others.

-- glen

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36 minutes ago, glen_h said:

and a thin gold layer on the front.

There is, then, a pattern of thicker gold leading to the front contact.

Absolutely no sign of gold being used on any of the Weston or Sekonic cells I've seen. The contact ring is a sputtered silver-coloured metal - maybe a sintered solder-like alloy. Certainly soft enough to deform under strong contact pressure.

Gold? Nary a sign of it! 

Also, AFAIK, the industry preference for a transparent-but-conductive coating is to use tin, which is cheap but effective. The contact ring on the Weston/Sekonic cells might well be pure tin, come to think of it. That would make sense. 

Incidentally, Selenium is nasty stuff that can give one chronic halitosis if ingested even in tiny quantities. It stinks like rotten cabbage at single figure parts-per-million dilutions if vaporised. Small wonder it's seldom used today. 

Edited by rodeo_joe1
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The gold contact is part of what makes it a photoelectric cell. 

That is, you get, more or less a pn junction, though not quite

as good as doped silicon.

 

But maybe silver works, too.

In any case, it is a thin layer, as the light has to go through it.

It isn't easy to find explanations for how they work, and it

might be that it wasn't/isn't well understood.

-- glen

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3 hours ago, rodeo_joe1 said:

Well, it appears that Selenium cells aren't an obsolete and dead-end technology after all. Link.

And they agree with you, ITO instead of gold!

It might be that ITO wasn't known 60 years ago.

 

By the way, in case anyone wondered, ITO is used in grocery store freezers,

to keep the glass from fogging up.  They warm it just enough.

Edited by glen_h
mention freezers

-- glen

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7 hours ago, subbarayan_prasanna said:

I still use Selenium Meters. 1. Old Gossen Pilot. 2. A Soviet Selenium meter very sensitive has low & high ranges. 3. A built in Meter in Pracktica Nova 1B. Still working well after 70 years of Birth! Of course, I do not try shooting in very low light. So these seem sufficient.

Even if they still work, and with the cell acting like new, there's still the issue that the selenium meters built into old cameras, as well as some handheld ones, take an integrating-average reading over a wide angle. Often wider than the lens fitted to the camera. Which is a very hit-or-miss way to read an exposure. Not much better than an educated guess. 

Edited by rodeo_joe1
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3 hours ago, rodeo_joe1 said:

Even if they still work, and with the cell acting like new, there's still the issue that the selenium meters built into old cameras, as well as some handheld ones, take an integrating-average reading over a wide angle. Often wider than the lens fitted to the camera. Which is a very hit-or-miss way to read an exposure. Not much better than an educated guess. 

One of the best uses of selenium cells to my knowledge is as implemented in cameras such as the Olympus Trip 35. Wonderful P&S camera if you have a reasonable sense of estimating distance.

One of the earliest and most useless examples (from todays perspective) is as implemented in my Gossen Ombrux f. Leica.

If you used film with a "23° Scheiner" sensitivity value and set your lens to f/9.0, you could make a direct reflected light shutter readout on the meter - and transfer that to the camera.
In any other situation (different film sensitivity or aperture) you'd have to refer to conversion tables printed on aluminium sheets attached to the meter case. One sheet for each possible film sensitivity.

The meter is from 1933 and was not only fairly expensive but was also considered high tech at the time. I would certainly think the "best guess" approach would be easier and not least much cheaper.

Edited by NHSN
Niels
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11 minutes ago, NHSN said:

One of the best uses of selenium cells

..except that if the selenium cell dies, those cameras are much less usable. I have a Trip, but my favourite camera of that type is my FED Mikron, a copy of the Konica Eye. It does full auto exposure, or manual aperture at a fixed 1/30 second, which I guess is intended for flash. Without the meter cell working, that would be the only way of shooting.

Whereas my FED 4 has a non-coupled selenium cell, which has died while in my care; but the rest of the camera works just the same. I wouldn't use that meter, partly for not trusting it and partly for the reasons Rodeo Joe mentioned.

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I have three Weston meters. Perhaps unfortunately for me in light of Rodeo Joe's comment above, they are a Master IV, a Master V and a Euromaster. I got the Master V at the Fort Sam Houston PX in 1967-68 and the Euromaster was given to me by a friend. George Milton/Quality Light Metric replaced the cells on these in 2007. He commented that the cells should be good for 15-20 years. At this point I'll hope for the best. As noted early in this thread, by 2014 George could no longer get the replacement cells. And of course now he has retired and closed the business.

Ian Partridge, see: https://ian-partridge.com/index.html , rebuilds and sells the Weston IV, the V and the Euromaster. This includes replacing the cell of course. I don't know where he gets the cells. I bought my Weston IV from him in 2017. 

Personally I like these meters but that in part is  because I'm drawn to old classic technologies. And full disclosure, I also use a Pentax digital spot meter.

As far as what is available new with a selenium cell, I'm guessing that's what the Sekonic L398 uses. Does anyone know? Sekonic calls it an "Amophous Photo Sensor" and comments that it doesn't require a battery.

 

David

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