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Canon EOS Digital Rebel (EOS 300D) Review

by Bob Atkins

[Editor's note: The Canon Digital Rebel has been discontinued. There is a review of the replacement, the Canon Digital Rebel XT]

Introduction

The Canon Digital Rebel, also known as the Canon EOS 300D, was introduced in October 2003 and was the first digital SLR (DSLR) to break the $1000 barrier at its introduction price of $899. In fact it's still the lowest price DSLR on the market. It is also available as a kit with the EF-S 18-55/3.5-5.6 lens (more on that later), and is still priced below $1000 ($999).

Though it's a Rebel, which is the designation for Canon's most basic, entry level, cameras, it has many features you might only expect to find on more advanced models, such as depth-of-field preview, white balance bracketing and flash sync at 1/200.

This review is part of a trilogy. This is the first part which deals with the Digital Rebel camera body in some detail. The second part is a detailed look at the EF-S 18-55/3.5-5.6 lens which is sold as part of a kit with the Digital Rebel body, and the third part of the review is a detailed comparision of the Digital Rebel (EOS 300D) with the EOS 10D.

So lets get on with Part I - a look at the Canon Digital Rebel DSLR body.

What's in the Box?

The following items are included with the Canon Digital Rebel:

  • EOS Digital Rebel Body
  • Digital Camera Solution CD-ROM
  • Adobe PhotoShop Elements
  • Software and hardware manuals
  • Video Cable VC-100
  • Interface Cable IFC-300PCU
  • Wide Strap EW-10DB II
  • Battery Charger CB-5L
  • Battery Pack BP-511
  • EF-S 18-55/3.5-5.6 lens (KIT ONLY)

Note there is no CF memory card supplied with the camera.

Canon Digital Rebel Specifications

Here's a short list of the major features

  • 6.3MP CMOS digital sensor (22.7 x 15.1mm)
  • 7 AF zones, 35 metering zones
  • Shutter speeds 30 - 1/4000. 1/200 sync
  • ISO 100-1600
  • 2.5 fps with 4 shot buffer

A full list of the complete Digital Rebel (EOS 300D) specifications can be found on the   Digital Rebel specifications Page

The Sensor

The CMOS sensor is 22.7 x 15.1mm and can generate a 3072 x 2048 pixel image. Since the sensor is smaller than a standard 35mm frame (36mm x 24mm), lenses will have a narrower field of view when mounted on a Digital Rebel than when mounted on a full frame 35mm camera. This gives rise the the 1.6x "cropping" or "multiplying" factor, so a standard Canon 50mm lens when mounted on a Digital rebel will give the same field of view as an 80mm lens (50 x 1.6 = 80) would on a normal full frame film body.

There are 3 image sizes and a total of 7 image capture modes:

  • Large/Fine: Approx. 3.1MB (3072 x 2048)
  • Large/ Normal: Approx. 1.8MB (3072 x 2048)
  • Middle/Fine: Approx. 1.8MB (2048 x 1360)
  • Middle/Normal: Approx. 1.2MB (2048 x1360)
  • Small/Fine: Approx. 1.4MB (1536 x 1024)
  • Small/Normal: Approx. 0.9MB (1536 x 1024).
  • RAW: Approx. 7MB (3072 x 2048)

The Lens

The Canon Digital Rebel is an SLR body, so there's no lens if that's what you buy. However there is a kit which includes the EF-S 18-55/3.5-5.6 lens - which is reviewed here in a separate article. Basically this lens gives you similar coverage as a 28-90 lens on a film SLR in terms of angle of view. It's a decent lens, better when not used wide open, and is certainly very good value for only $100 when purchased with the Digital Rebel body. Note that it is ONLY available as part of the kit, so if you want one, buy the kit. If you buy the body, then decide you wish you had bought the lens, you're out of luck if you want a new one. You'll have to search around for someone selling a used one.

Exposure Modes

There are the usual Canon EOS exposure modes found on all film based consumer EOS cameras, so if you've ever used a Rebel or Elan, these will be very familiar. The "Creative Zone" modes allow more user control (for example you can select ISO and one shot or continuous shooting). The "PIC" modes are designed to automatically give the best choice of settings (metering mode, AF mode, shooting mode, flash mode, ISO setting) without the user having to think much.

Creative zone modes:

  • Program AE (shiftable)
  • shutter-priority AE
  • aperture-priority AE
  • auto depth-of-field AE
  • full auto
  • manual.

Programmed image control modes ("PIC" modes)

  • Portrait
  • Landscape
  • Close-up
  • Sports
  • Night Portrait
  • Flash Off
  • E-TTL autoflash program AE

ISO settings and noise

The camera can be set from ISO 100 to 1600 in full stop steps (100, 200, 400, 800, 1600) in the "creative" modes. In the "PIC" modes ISO is set automatically to ISO 100, 200 or 400, depending on the mode. For example in portrait mode, ISO is always set to 100. In sports mode, ISO is always set to 400. In the other PIC modes, the ISO setting depends on shooting conditions.

Because of the large sensor, and hence large pixel size, noise levels are much lower than normally found on digicams with physically smaller sensors. Below are 100% crops from test images shot at each ISO setting. At ISO 100 and 200 noise is pretty much invisible. At ISO 400 there is just a hint of noise. At ISO 800 noise is visible and at ISO 1600 it's quite evident. However remember these are 100% crops. The samples are 107 pixels square, so the full image would be 28x wider and 19x taller. On my monitor (17", 1280x1024) they would represent sections from something like a 20x30 print.

Digital Rebel (EOS 300D) ISO noise performance

White balance

There are the usual preset modes, which are auto, daylight, shade, overcast, tungsten bulb, fluorescent light, flash. There is also a custom mode, where you take an image of a neutral tone card (white or gray) and then use that as the color reference. In addition there is the ability to bracket WB in steps of  +/- 5, +/- 10 or +/- 15 Mireds over a sequence of 3 frames. A Mired is a unit of color correction (it stands for MIcro REciprocal Degree), but it's a pretty small unit as you can see from the image sequence below.

Digital Rebel (EOS 300D) white balance bracketing

Under normal outdoor conditions, the auto WB setting does a good job, but indoors under difficult lighting (e.g. tungsten) it's not so good. The custom mode always does the best job, but takes a little time to setup since you first have to shoot an image of a neutral card, then use the menu system to select that image for the custom WB reference.

Note though that you might not always want an image fully corrected to standard "daylight" color balance. Here's an example of Auto and Cloudy WB taken on a fully overcast day. The shot on the top left was taken using Auto WB, the shot on the top right using the Cloudy WB setting, the shot on the bottom left was taken using custom WB based on a shot of a sheet of white paper as the reference and the shot on the bottom right was taken using Auto WB, but later color corrected in PhotoShop.

AUTO_WB_300D.jpg (16688 bytes)  Canon EOS Digital Rebel Review cloudy_WB_300D.jpg (17424 bytes)

Canon EOS Digital Rebel Review CUSTOM_WB_300D.jpg (17239 bytes)  Canon EOS Digital Rebel Review MANUAL_WB_300D.jpg (18017 bytes)

I think the Auto WB shots gives a better impression of what the scene looked like from a subjective viewpoint, though the Cloudy WB shot maybe has more "accurate" colors based on what it would look like under   "standard" illumination conditions (i.e. sunny daylight). The custom WB probably does even better at producing "standard" colors, but it's pretty close to the Cloudy shot (with a touch less magenta). Just to show that all this isn't really that important, the bottom right shot is the top left shot after a slight color tweak in PhotoShop and is, I think, the best of the four! Personally I don't expect the camera to fully optimize colors to what *I* will like best. I expect to work on all my images. Some newcomers to digital though expect 100% perfect shots right out of the camera every time. Realistically, they will be disappointed quite often.

Here is a neutral (gray) target shot under illumination from a 100W tungsten bulb. You can clearly see that neither auto WB nor Tungsten WB do a particularly great job, but the custom setting is very good. In passing I'll note that the 10D shows similar performance, so this isn't just a Digital Rebel problem.

Digital Rebel (EOS 300D) white balance examples

In general if you want "standard illumination" colors rather than effects, it's probably better to use the preset modes rather than leaving the camera in auto WB all the time, especially when shooting indoors, but if you want precise color, use the custom WB mode. Note that if you shoot in the RAW mode rather than JPEG, you can adjust the white balance after you have taken the shot when you convert the RAW file to a TIFF or JPEG. This gives you the most post-exposure flexibility.

Autofocus Modes

There are 4 focus modes, One-Shot AF, Predictive AI Servo AF, AI Focus AF (automatically selects One-Shot AF or AI Servo AF selected according to shooting mode), Manual Focusing (MF). However these modes are not user selectable. The camera chooses the AF mode depending on the shooting mode. For example in the creative modes, AI Focus is used. This means that if the subject is static, One Shot AF is chosen, but if the subject under the active AF zone(s) starts to move towards or away from the camera, the focus mode will switch to AI Servo AF and focus will attempt to track the subject as it moves. One shot AF is used in most of the PIC modes, but in the Sports mode AI Servo is used.

Metering Modes

The camera normally operates in a 35 zone evaluative metering mode in all modes except for manual.. Partial metering is available only in conjunction with the exposure lock button and when in M, Av, Tv or P creative modes. There is no indication of the partial metering area (9% of full screen) on the viewfinder screen. In the manual mode, default metering is centerweighted, but exposure lock activates partial metering. There does not appear to be any way to decouple exposure lock and partial metering. If you want partial metering you have to have exposure lock. If you want exposure lock, you have to have partial metering. In the PIC modes, metering is always 35 zone evaluative.

Viewfinder

The viewfinder image is rather small (0.8x) and has 95% coverage. The relative small image size is probably a consequence of using a pentamirror system rather than a pentaprism. Though a pentamirror is lighter and cheaper than a pentaprism, it also loses more light and so to compensate for this and to brighten the image, the image has to be made smaller. There is a built in adjustable (-3 to +1 diopter) dioptric correction. The eyepoint is 21mm. Coupled with the smaller screen size this means you can see the whole screen of you wear glasses, but you do have to have your glasses pressed against the rubber eyepiece cup to do so.

LCD screen

There is a rear mounted 1.8" LCD screen for image display, with 118,00 displayed pixels. It gives 100% coverage of the image and there are 5 levels of brightness. Like all DSLRs, the LCD screen can only be use to view images after they have been taken. Unlike digicams, there is no "live" display of images. This is impossible in DSLRs since there is a mirror between the lens and sensor and a mechanical shutter, so no light reaches the sensor until an exposure is made.

Data Display

The Canon Digital Rebel displays a comprehensive set of data, including an optional histogram in both shooting and playback modes. Displayable data includes date, time, shutter speed, exposure compenstaion, ISO, metering mode, shooting mode, image size and quality, number of frames shot and image # being displayed. An example is shown below

Canon EOS Digital Rebel Review image_playback.jpg (41567 bytes)

The quality of the LCD image is excellent - much better than it appears in the image above. For some reason it's camera shy and doesn't reproduce well!

On replay images can be displayed one at a time of in groups of 9. It takes about 5 seconds to display the 9 frame index page (1.6MB files). The image can be magnifed up to 10x to check focus.

Accessories

Many of the standard Canon EOS SLR accessories fit the Digital Rebel, from remote releases, through extension tubes to external Speedlites. Examples of typical accessories purchased for the Digital Rebel are:

  • Battery grip BG-E1 (holds two batteries, doubles shooting time)
  • Semi-hard case EH-16L (holds camera plus 18-55 lens)
  • AC Adapter CA-PS400
  • Remote Controller RC-1
  • Remote Switch RS-60E3

Flash

The Canon Digital Rebel has a built in flash with a guide number of 13 (ISO 100, meters) and an angle of coverage the same as an 18mm lens mounted on the Digital Rebel. The approximate maxium range of the flash is given in the following table:

ISO 100 ISO 200 ISO 400 ISO 800 ISO 1600
f4 3.25m 4.6m 6.5m 9.2m 13m
f5.6 2.3m 3.25m 4.6m 6.5m 9.2m
f8 1.6m 2.3m 3.2m 4.6m 6.4m

There is a red eye reduction light (white) which can be user selected. The Digital Rebel takes any of the Current Canon Speedlites which attach via the hotshoe. The Digital Rebel supports E-TTL flash capability and the built in flash is E-TTL (this means there is a preflash used for metering before the main flash fires). There is no PC socket for external flash connection.

There is no flash exposure compensation available on the Digital Rebel body. To get flash exposure compensation you have to use an external Speedlite with that function built in (e.g. 550EX).

In the indoor flash tests I tried, exposure and color balance were pretty good. I'm not a big flash shooter myself, but I was happy with the results I obtained.

Timing Issues

Timing measurements were performed by imaging the sweep second hand of a running analog stopwatch. Measurements were repeated several times in order to average out errors. Errors are estimated to be smaller than +/- 0.1 seconds.

From the camera in the "Off" condition to the first exposure takes a minimum of 3.5s. This is with the lens in manual focus mode. The time will be longer if the lens has to first achieve focus, so a realistic estimate of camera-on to first-expose time would be 4 seconds.

In continuous shooting mode the frame rate was measured at 2.5 frames per second for a maximum of 4 shots, consistent with Canon's specification for the Digital Rebel. Using several "normal" speed CF cards (Viking 512MB, Simple Technology 64MB) the Digital Rebel took 14 seconds to fully write 4  Large-fine JPEG frames shot at ISO 100 (average file size 1650 Kbytes). However you don't need to wait for all 4 files to finish writing before you can shoot again.

For example, in continuous mode, if the shutter is held down, the first 4 frames shot at a frame rate of about 2.5 fps, the next 8 frames shot at 1 fps and from there on the frame rate dropped to 1 frame every 4.5 seconds. This latter rate is consistent with the write time for a file (measured at 4.5 seconds in the paragraph above). Clearly the Rebel has various shooting and writing buffers. When they are all filled, the frame rate depends on the time to fully write a file. These rates will certainly be somewhat influenced by the speed of the CF card used. A faster CF card won't change the maximum shooting rate of 2.5 fps, but it will probably speed up the reduced shooting rates which are ultimately limited by the rate at which files can be written to the CF card.

If you want fire off 4 shot bursts at 2.5 fps, you can fire the first burst starting at 0 seconds, the second burst starting at 5 seconds, the 3rd burst starting at 10 seconds, the 4th burst starting at at 24 seconds and the 5th burst starting at 42 seconds . Again you see the effect of the buffers filling up.

Batteries

The Canon Digital Rebel uses the Canon BP-511 battery which is common to a number of Canon DSLRs and Powershot series digicams. They are easy to find both as Canon OEM products or generic copies. A line voltage powered charger for one battery is supplied with the camera.

Canon claim around 600 shots per charge if the flash isn't used, or about 400 shots with the flash used 50% of the time for normal temperatures (68°F/20°C). At low temperatures (32°F/0°C), this drops to 450 frames without flash, 350 frames with 50% flash usage.

Software

The Digital Rebel comes with software support for both the Mac and PC. Adobe PhotoShop Elements II is provided, and it's a decent basic image editor. Certainly enough to get the average user up and running. Canon also provide their own software suite (Zoombrowser) for downloading images, browsing and cataloging them and converting RAW files to TIFF (8 or 16bit) or JPEG files.

Other features

The Canon Digital Rebel is compatible with CP direct, Bubble Jet direct and Pictbridge enabled printers, so you can print directly from the camera without the need for a computer.

Unlike many "do it all" digicams, this is a Digital SLR and has the features you'd expect to find on a film SLR. There's no movie mode, no voice recording or sound mode, there's no "B&W", "Sepia tint" or other odd color modes. It doesn't give a real time display of the image. It doesn't play MP3 files. Basically it's a film SLR with a digital sensor replacing the film and this is pretty much the case for all DSLRs from all manufacturers. It's serious equipment for serious digital still photography.

Image Quality

Image quality is high. Better than anything you'll get from an "all in one" digicam, mainly because of the larger sensor and, of course, the ability to pick and chose lenses. In particular the low light/high ISO performance of the Digital Rebel is much better than that of digicams using smaller pixles. In s few side by side tests with an EOS 10D I could see no difference in image quality (though note that the default settings for contrast, saturation and sharpness are higher on the Digital Rebel then the 10D, so default JPEGs from the two cameras may look different). Since the two cameras share the same sensor (and presumably very similar electronics and software), this would be expected.

Sample Images

If you have the bandwidth, Canon have some full size Digital Rebel images for download, and these are available as both JPEG or TIFF files. Note that the TIFF files are 18MB each (there are 6 available), so if you don't have a broadband connection go for the JPEGs ("only" 4.5MB each!). You'll still have a long slow download of course, but it will give you a good idea of the image quality that the Rebel is capable of.

What's good, what's not so good?

It's ahrd to find too many faults with the camera. If I had to find faults, I'd say the viewfinder display is a bit small, but you quickly get used to that. The auto white balance could also be better in some situations (e.g. indoor shooting under tungsten light), but that's not a big deal for me or anyone who expects to do some image optimization prior to printing. The lack of user control over metering and AF modes can also be somewhat frustrating for more experienced photographers who like total control, but it's something the novice DSLR user might not really notice.The lack of flash expsoure compensation could be a problem for heavy flash users who don't like the auto settings. These and other differences from the EOS 10D are disccussed in more deatil in a seperate article comparing the EOS 10D to the Digital Rebel (EOS 300D)

What's not so good are really the things I'd like to see but which the Canon Digital Rebel doesn't offer - but then if it did it would be $1500, not $900 and it would be an EOS 10D not an EOS Digital Rebel! I don't much like the silver body and under some lighting conditions it can be a bit hard to read the labels on the controls (light blue text on a silver background isn't as clear as white on black), but that's a pretty minor complaint.

Conclusion

The Canon Digital Rebel is an excellent camera at a remarkably low price given the cost of other Digital SLRs. No doubt prices will drop further and cameras will improve over the next few years, but right now the Digital Rebel sets a price/performance standard that's hard to beat. It's clearly better and more versatile than similarly priced non SLR digicams in the same price range, though it may be slightly larger and you do have to buy lenses for it. However the 18-55mm kit lens is a very good performer, especially when stopped down a stop from full aperture ( see separate lens test on the EF-S 18-55/3.5-5.6) and if you're buying the Digital Rebel and you don't have a wide-angle lens already (remember, 18mm on a Digital Rebel is equivalent to 29mm on a full frame camera), I'd recommend getting the kit with this lens included for only $100 more than the body itself.

Whether the EOS 10D ($1500) would be a better buy depends on your needs. This question is covered in detail in a separate article "Digital Rebel or EOS 10D?", however I'd have no hesitation in recommending the Digital Rebel and EF-S 18-55mm lens to anyone who wants to get in on the ground floor of quality digital imaging.

Photographers with no investment in Canon lenses or who already have an investment in Nikon lenses will probably look at the new Nikon D70 DSLR ($999 or $1299 with an 18-70 "kit" lens). It's certainly looks like a nice camera, but this isn't the time or place to address the "Canon vs. Nikon" issue! There's a full review of the D70 here on photo.net. In the rapidly evolving world of digital cameras it's probably true that whatever you buy will be replaced by a better and/or cheaper model in about 12-18months. Of course if you wait for it, you may wait forever because there will always be something better yet another 12-18 months down the line!

Again, Photo.net would like to thank ADORAMA for providing a demo camera for review

Where to buy the Canon Digital Rebel

The Digital Rebel and Digital Rebel Kit (body + 18-55 lens) is available from the following photo.net affiliate stores. Buying via these links helps to support the photo.net website.

© Copyright 2004 Bob Atkins. Visit Bob Atkins Photography at www.bobatkins.com

Readers' Comments


Add a comment



D L , August 20, 2003; 05:22 A.M.

Best value in the digital world(if you prefer SLR)!

Stefan Unterholzner , August 20, 2003; 05:31 A.M.

Hi!

This is what I have read in a german computer magazin news ticker (http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/jk-20.08.03-001/ for those who can read german). It seems almost indentical to the 10D as it seems to use the same CMOS sensor chip. Here are the specs:
- CMOS sensor with 6.3 Million pixels at 22,7 mm× 15,1 mm
- 7 point AF
- 35 points for exposure calculation
- DIGIC processor
- 2.5 frames/s for 4 frames
- Shutter speeds of 1/4000 to 30 seconds
- CF I/II memory cards
- Plastic body weighting 560 gramms with dimensions 142 mm× 99 mm× 73 mm
- No custom functions (as I understand)
- Storage by four resolutions and RAW-format
- ETTL flash
- Integrated flash with GN 13
- 95% viewing field
- USB interface (1.1 or 2.0 not mentioned) and Video out
- 1.8" LCD screen with 118,000 pixel
- Top data-LCD and LCD-screen illuminated

And now for the price: This camera will cost 1,099 euros. So in $$ I think this will be less.
What is more intersesting that there will be new lenses! The so called EF-S lenses with short back technology are similar to the Nikon digital lenses that take use of the smaller sensor. The EF-S 18-55 f/3,5-5,6 will cost 100 euros. Normal EF mount lenses can be used.

It seems Canon has made another big deal. Nikon etc. beware!

Stefan

Per-Christian Nilssen , August 20, 2003; 07:51 A.M.

Specifications of EOS300D on this site: http://213.247.48.188/ProdSpecs_EOS300D.asp

Gerry Szarek , August 20, 2003; 08:28 A.M.

Big downgrade from the 10D, first plastic body, second NO custom menus. This camera is aimed squarely at the PS crowd. The good news out of this is they are releasing a 100~400 F4 L with IS, assuming it's better optically than the current 100~400 this lens should sell like hot cakes!!!

It looks like Nikon/Minolta/Sony are in BIG trouble with this new camera.

GS

Mark Goldstein , August 20, 2003; 08:29 A.M.

I have posted all of the EOS 300D news, press release, product shots and an interview with Canon Marketing on my blog:

PhotographyBLOG.com

Mark

Dirk Seffern , August 20, 2003; 08:37 A.M.

"...Big downgrade from the 10D, first plastic body, second NO custom menus..."

so what is more important for the value of a camera, a good quality picture or costum functions?

If the 300D has the same specs (except these minor issues) as the 10d, why I should spend twice the price (in Europe) for the 10D, assuming the image quality is the same?

I try to save money and not to spend more than absolute necessary :)

Dirk

www.canoninfo.com

Todd Adams , August 20, 2003; 08:37 A.M.

I have to disagree with Gerry. This is neither for the point and shoot crowd nor the professionals. I think Canon aimed for a neglected market segment and nailed it perfectly.

There are those who've taken a renewed interest in photography as a result of digital technology and they will be willing to spend a bit more for higher quality and more control. That's exactly what the 300D will give them. It's too much of a toy for professionals, and 'too much' period for someone who wants to take snapshots of the kids. But for those in the middle, it's just right, as will be the price.

karthik nandyal , August 20, 2003; 09:02 A.M.

EOS 300D also has a wireless remote control RC5. I am not sure if EOS10D had this option. The only remote that was available on 10D was the "hard-connected" cable.

Jim Larson , August 20, 2003; 09:49 A.M.

Clearly the dSLR rebel that has been long rumoured.

David Re , August 20, 2003; 10:03 A.M.

Two other quick notes - it's slower (2.5fps) and has a smaller buffer (4 images) than the 10D (3fps, 9 image buffer). For the target audience of the camera, though, I don't think this'll make much difference.

It might turn out to be a great lightweight backup to a 10D - or even for a pro-level 1D or 1Ds, depending on your needs. Definitely would be easier to hike with!

Hopefully, Canon will develop the EF-S line of lenses a bit, and give us a true wide angle lens for the 1.6x crop factor cameras - something like an 8-18/2.8 would be really slick :)

Dave

Paulo Machado , August 20, 2003; 10:52 A.M.

I do expected a camera like this but a litle better. It seems that canon won't be by this level for the public canon has to achieve - the entusiasts of photography that love to creat with semi-pro equipment.

I have a great set of canon equipment (eos 30/Elan II, with canon L series lenses)and I´m not convinced to change for a digital body in plastic!!!. But I have to say the 300D has a great look and specs.

Joel Becker , August 20, 2003; 11:36 A.M.

CHEERS to Canon for breaking the $1k barrier. Here we go, folks.

JEERS to Canon for removing the second command dial. Folks who like A and M modes will find that particularly annoying.

JEERS to Canon for going with the EF-S small-sensor-only lens. Small-sensor lock-in is a bad idea, as is a 3.5 max aperture lens. According to LetsGoDigital, the lens puts its rear element closter to the sensor than can be done on a full-sized 35mm.

D L , August 20, 2003; 11:37 A.M.

$999! Available mid sept. http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20030820_digitalrebel.html

Dmitriy Belenko , August 20, 2003; 12:26 P.M.

$999 is for the kit. Body only is $899 (which means $799 from some retailers). Boy, do I feel stupid about buying a 10D now!

Ken Dunn , August 20, 2003; 01:05 P.M.

looks like the new lens will only work with the digital rebel and not even the 10D if I am reading it right ("work on no other EOS camera")

Erb Duchenne , August 20, 2003; 01:21 P.M.

I think Canon is bang on the buck with the 300D. It's clearly targeted at a huge group of people in my shoes, an amateur enthusiast who's resisting the move to digital because of price.

I currently have EOS 1000FN, EOS 100 and EOS 300 bodies and of course a range of lenses. My current choices for a digital move is limited to the EOS 10D, which although is relatively cheap, still sports the same price as the top of the range professional film EOS cameras. Although the G5 is cheaper and offers some manual control, it is still more expensive than any one of the cameras I currently own and it can't share any of the lenses. There's also the red eye and chromatic aberration problems to deal with. Moving on to a prosumer digital, really, is a downgrade.

With the 300D I can get the cheapest digital SLR yet, I don't have to buy a super expensive wide angle for the 1.6 multiplication, I get 6.3 Megapixels and probably can produce just as good a picture on it as I would on a 10D. I'd be out the door to buy one right now if it were in the shops today.

Why anyone would complain it isn't up to specs with the 10D is beyond me. If it were, the 10D would have to have its price reduced drastically and previous 10D and D60 owners will be throwing stones at every Canon representative they find. So will Nikon and all the other camera makers! :P

Forrest Croce , August 20, 2003; 02:17 P.M.

The 35 mm film killer.

Although Canon made a "special" EF-S lens to "complement" this camera, it still takes the full range of 35 mm EF lenses, along with the TS-E and MP-E MF/EF lenses. Wide-angle is a very real issue, but the other side of the coin is that this beast comes with a VERY good 1.6x teleconverter, that's free in money terms, and doesn't rob your lenses of a stop.

This is the first and only digital SLR to sell for less than $1,000 ( USD ), and by a wide margain. The point is to kill of 35 mm film. With six million image pixels and a decent low-pass filter, this gives you all the print resolution of anything but Provia 100F, with a lot less noise/grain.

Of course, there's still medium and large format, and if you're realistic, 35 mm was always the Micky Mouse of film formats. This camera is going to bring digital into a lot more hands, and it's going to make a lot of people better photographers, as they can now experiment, and control the developing of their images.

Jamie W , August 20, 2003; 03:48 P.M.

Here is the way I see things.

1D(s) is like the 1v

10D is the Elan 7

D300 is rebel

It's not a matter of which is better or worse. It's a matter of do you need the improved features enough to fork out the additional cash. From what I can tell (not counting 11mp sensors =) the main differences between Canon's three DSLR are basically the same as in their film counterparts. That is, auto focus speed/tracking, exposure control, motor drive, and build quality. Put the same lens on all of the cameras and set to manual everything and you will get EXACTLY the same quality picture (again discounting 11mp =). The difference is in how well the camera can help you get the picture.

Qiang Lin , August 20, 2003; 03:54 P.M.

Please don't judge anything by PLASTIC. This is not the same plastic used in lunch boxes. People use plastic in airplanes, space shuttles. If you don't like plastics, you don't have to, but there is no point to say that something is bad because of using plastic. Canon is a reputable company that builds quality equipments. I don't think their product will break easily. Same applies to Nikon, ... I truely believe this camera has good value, and hope I will have the budget to buy it soon.

Marcus Christian , August 20, 2003; 05:58 P.M.

I agree with a few others, I think this camera is spot on. Glad it got a 6mpxl sensor, I was just expecting a 4. It's definitely a Rebel for features which kind of sucks for anyone that has moved onto Elans and beyond, but if like me you'd love to go DSLR but can't afford it then this is $600 closer than before. If you have to have the extra features get a 10D and stop whining.

As for the 18-55, making it incompatible with other digitals seems odd. I wonder if shortening the backthrow let them keep the cost down somehow? It is dirt cheap. Now we get to look forward to all the posts about people breaking their other cameras trying to use one they bought on ebay.

Wonder what it will do to D30/D60 prices? I see them taking a rapid nose dive now.

Mark U , August 20, 2003; 07:52 P.M.

Apart from the frame rate and buffer, the 300D offers almost exactly the same capability as the 10D - including AF performance - and thus much debate in this forum will be curtailed. The ergonomics are different, to be sure, but it's a winner. What about the "plastic" body? There's a warning in the manual (already available online) about not touching the internals if the camera breaks open on being dropped, so it may not be ultimately robust. However, the Rebel/EOS 300 bodies are tougher than many suppose. But the lack of metal does leave it open to electromagnetic fields in both directions - there are also warnings about not using it in an aircraft or hospital, and away from strong fields such as power transmission lines. For digital, metal is about more than robustness.

Lowell Schechter , August 20, 2003; 09:02 P.M.

I am not surprised that Canon has come out with another Digital SLR, considering that Canon came out with D30, D60 and 10D over the last three years. Thats one Digital SLR a year, which I think is pretty remarkable. I knew that Canon had another Digital SLR on the drawing board and I new it would have to Break the $1000 dollar barrier to attract new people to the Digital SLR world. I did not think the Canon 300D would come out this soon though, but they aways want to get a jump on the Competition( Nikon) I also thought the Canons new entry would be a lighter more compact Camera body. It certainly appeals to me because not I don't have worry about lugging around a heavier like the Canon 10D and still get good quality photo's ( 6.3 megapixels) I am sure Nikon is lurking around the corner.

Jay Dougherty , August 20, 2003; 09:06 P.M.

Smart move. Not a camera I'd want, but I know many who would.

Mike Burley , August 20, 2003; 11:46 P.M.

Well good job. I mean that sarcastically, yet a liitle serious. This is a smart move, for canon. THey will make more money from consumers in the amature-electronic-geek category. Every yuppy/student/amature SLR user will buy this. Its WAY better then a power shot or any other digital camera that isn't an SLR. On the other hand, WHY isn't there a new pro DSLR like I thought was coming out today!!!!??? CRAP!!!! I'm waiting to buy a 1D, and thought that a new 1D (maybe 1DX) was coming out. I want the price to drop on the 1D so I can buy it. Shame on canon for not r4eleasing a camera for pros. (OK maybe harsh) ANYONE know when the 1DX or whatever the hell it is, is coming out so I can buy the freakin' 1D? Or expect a price drop? Thanks. PS: Who wants to sell a 1D?

River Side , August 21, 2003; 02:20 A.M.

Excellent!!!

The 10D price HAS to come down.. $1600 is atrocious.. $900 for 98% of the performance means 10D is way overpriced..

I've love to get my hands on this baby..

One thought though.. would this mean Canon wouldn't be revamping it's film SLR"s.. i was so waiting for a new Elan 7 .. maybe Canon can now surprise us with an under $2000 Film + Digital interchangeable back camera.

Yakim Peled , August 21, 2003; 02:23 A.M.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the quick comparison to the 10D. Just a small editorial note. You wrote "Since the mirror is maller than in a full frame DSLr...". I guess that "maller" is supposed to be "smaller" and that "DSLr" should be "DSLR" ?

Happy shooting , Yakim.

Richard Thompson , August 21, 2003; 03:31 A.M.

Riverside - you wont see an interchangable film/digital back for an EOS. The internal design of the film and digital cameras are very different - they have been developed from the ground up (unlike the D30 which they used the base of film eos to start on)

Jenda Knoulich , August 21, 2003; 07:26 A.M.

Mark U, where did you say was the user manual available online?

Ron Chappel , August 21, 2003; 08:09 A.M.

The auto compatability with XP and OS-x without drivers is a serious benifit to travelers.Just go into any internet cafe and get pics burnt to CD etc. <br>A good sensible feature

Jamie Walters , August 21, 2003; 08:36 A.M.

Has anyone else heard anything about Canon releasing a 100-400 f/4 L IS??? I checked the Canon USA website and there is nothing about it.

This could be the answer to my needs !!! I hope its true!!!

Oliver S. , August 21, 2003; 09:47 A.M.

I think someone misread the specs of the 100-400mm on the 300D site. The lens I found is the current Ef 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM. (Btw where are the EF 200-600mm f/4.0 DO IS USM and the EF 500mm f/2.8 DO IS USM that Canon rumoured when the EF 400mm f/4.0 DO IS USM hit the markets?)

The 10D price HAS to come down.. $1600 is atrocious.
Tell that to Europeans who have to shell out € 1900 for a 10D. List price is € 2200. Canon Europe exploits us.

Can be that EF-S lens used on a film camera? Or it won't cover the entire 35mm frame?
Not only doesn't it cover the entire frame (neither do the DX Nikkors), its rear element is recessed so far that the slightly larger mirror of an 35mm SLR would hit it. (The Nikon 12-24mm f/4.0 DX clears at least some Nikon 35mm SLRs' mirrors. I don't know about the other new DX lenses.)

Wrt the 300D itself, I have mixed feelings: great camera, but the ergonomics... perhaps I can survive without a rear control dial, although my ancient EOS 600 occasionally drives me mad. But I need an AF that has nothing to do with the shutter release--even the EOS 600 has the famous CF4.

Sandeep Gupta , August 21, 2003; 10:40 A.M.

I am kind of surprised to see Canon come out with a lens that is designed for a specific digital camera. What happened to the 'unsurpassed compatibility' claim ?

Looks like Canon is trying to follow ideas of some of its competitors instead of being a trend-setter.

Dominic Messiha , August 21, 2003; 11:53 A.M.

When the 10D came out, many speculated/expected that it would come down close to the $1000 range after the first year. I agree that $900 for a 300D vs. $1500 for a 10D is going to make a lot of people go for a 300D. Of course, given that the 10D was really only a D60 "Mk. II", it may be within Canon's plan and profit margin to sell lots of 300Ds instead, while it develops the 10D's successor. Given that Canon seems to have abandoned 24x36mm sensors for all but its "pro" digital bodies, it could be that the technological improvements in "semi-pro" DSLRs has leveled off somewhat, and the only improvements we're likely to see in the near future are in AF algorithms, buffer speeds and FPS. One thing's for sure, if you're hanging on to a D60 or D30 that you've been planning to sell, better unload it quick. You'd be foolish to pay more than $400 for a D30 nowadays.

Erb Duchenne , August 21, 2003; 12:18 P.M.

"I am kind of surprised to see Canon come out with a lens that is designed for a specific digital camera. What happened to the 'unsurpassed compatibility' claim ?"

I may be inclined to agree with you if I understood what you were getting at. By introducing these new lenses, Canon's compatibility has been surpassed?

"Looks like Canon is trying to follow ideas of some of its competitors instead of being a trend-setter." Looks like. And they followed ...'s idea by releasing the EOS 300D.

Hey... I'd buy the rebel if it were made of paper and it's price were a coupla' hundred bucks less. I'd just have to take better care of the camera and not get it wet, right? My plastic is drawn. It's just a matter of which shop receives stock first. Ooooh, aren't these exciting times? :D

Matt Kime , August 21, 2003; 01:16 P.M.

I think that until full frame 35mm sensors become cheaper, this issue of digital lenses will continue to be an issue. It simply makes sense to use lenses that provide no more coverage than necessary. True, this means you can't interchange lenses with your 35mm equipment, but you're also lugging around a lot less glass.

Mike Burley , August 21, 2003; 03:10 P.M.

I commented earlier, that I wondered if the 300d would have an effect on the price of the 1D NOT the 10D (like someone mentioned). the 10d is in the same category as the 300d. The 1D is NOWHERE near either.Its a pro sports/PJ camera. So i was wondering if the 300d would indirrectly make the 1D drop in price. Or if anyone knows when the 1DX ( or whatever the name for the replacement 1D is) comes out. I am only waiting another month or so to buy the 1D and dont want to buy it right before a price drop. Any help out there?

Bob Atkins , August 21, 2003; 07:17 P.M.

Small format lenses make some sense - if you think you'll never use a full frame format camera (film or digital). Otherwise, when you do go full frame you'll have to buy a whole new bag of lenses and either carry two sets of lenses around or attempt to sell the old ones (which could be tricky if an inexpensive full frame body is available).

For me it would make sense only if a full frame equivalent wasn't available. If a 10-30mm zoom appeared (16-48mm in 35mm FOV terms) for the 10D (i.e. EF mount and standard backfocus) I'd be interested. Nikon have a 12-24 (I think), so it's time for Canon to go "one up" on them!

BTW in case anyone is just reading the comments, I've updated the original article slightly and added a link to Ritz who are now taking orders for the 300D for mid-September delivery (or at least that's when they hope to start shipping to the first people on their wait list!).

Adam , , August 21, 2003; 07:20 P.M.

This is surprising to me, and I'm sure everyone who was not willing to spend the $$$ to move to digital SLRs yet had a film SLR now has little excuse not to buy one.

People like me who bought a film SLR because they wanted something of high quality yet would last tens of years are now able to buy a digital camera and use the exact same lenses on it. Now I'm really glad I went with Canon, this will be perfect for me. Will (or when will) Nikon follow suit?

Tim Chakravorty , August 21, 2003; 08:39 P.M.

Nikon won't They think they will be able to indefinitely fool people into buying their archaic overpriced D100

seth hosler , August 21, 2003; 09:56 P.M.

Congrats to Canon for pulling this off. This ought to be a huge marketing success, whatever flaws the product may have.

More strikingly, this shows us just how far behind Minolta is. How can the maker of the best AF 35mm film cameras in the world totally deglect the digital segment? I'm still praying that someday soon there will be a "Digital 7" and a "Digital 9", using a full-size image sensor that allows me to use my current lenses with the focal lengths unchanged.

If anyone can explain to me any physical reson why a full-size sensor cannot be made, I would love to hear from you.

Mike Burley , August 22, 2003; 12:51 A.M.

you REALLY think that Minolta has ANY success in the AF department? you havn't used the canon EOS 1V's or eos 3's eye control 45 point AF have you? I'm an ex-minolta user and NEVER looked back. They dont make any pro level cameras to match up to canon's new line of USM & IS lenses and and fastest AF I'v ever used. But thats just my opinion....

gabriele lopez , August 22, 2003; 04:20 A.M.

Seth, for what I know there are really big problems when you use current designed wide angles on a full size digi sensor, for the fact that those don't like very much angled light rays...the problem instead don't persist with telephoto lenses. At this point you should re-design many lenses....at this point, I think, is just easy to create lens for that "little" sensor, that otherwise is even cheaper to produce and change in case of accidents..

Sorry for your lenses compatibility, but anyway, this one of the total system compatibility is a thing that probably is not destined to last......and I use plenty of Mf lenses, too!!

I hope I explained something in a not-so-good English.

Ciao!

D L , August 22, 2003; 05:15 A.M.

Bob, you forgot to add that digital Rebel does not allow user to select AF modes(One shot or AI Servo). It uses AI Focus in creative zones, meaning automatic detection and switching between the two.

Axel Farr , August 22, 2003; 05:45 A.M.

Neue Seite 1

Hello Bob,


thanks to you for your report about the EOS 300D! For completeness you should include some more facts in your report:
  1. the EOS 300D seems to be very related to the 300V concerning the layout of the body. If that means that the camera has a metallic lens mount is not yet shure, since all available photos show the body only with a lens mounted. A plastic lens mount might be a severe drawback even for amateurs who want the camera to be used e.g. on a larger and heaviert telephoto lens; but I expect Canon has learned from the success of the EOS 300V that even a low-priced camera can have a solid lens mount without much additional expense.
  2. the EOS 300D has some of the EOS 10D's custom functions (CF) implemented into the normal menu settings. There e.g. the use of "red-eye-reduction" for the internal flash can be determined as well as the image kind and size. Probably not all settings will be possible, so I do not expect sync on second courtain be available on the 300D.
  3. the EF-S 18-55mm 1/3.5-5.6 lens will (in the moment) not fit to any other camera than the EOS 300D. In fact, the lens will not be available other than bundled with the EOS 300D for only 100$ or € more than the camera allone.
  4. the EF-S mount of the lens and camera are designed that way that the back of the lens reaches some 4mm deeper into the camera than with a normal EF mount. To avoid mechanical damage on lens or body when trying to mount an EF-S lens to a camera with an EF mount, the back of the lens is coated with a rubber, which sticks agains a part of the body inside the normal EF body mount (and not the mirror), so the system is idiot-proof
  5. since the new EF-S lens will not fit to any existing EF extension tube, Canon announced the availability of new extension tubes with the 300D. The ET 12 II and ET 25 II extension tubes will replace the older tubes, since they allow any EF and EF-S lens to be mounted and also fit to any EOS body (since the rear element of an EF-S lens is inside the tube, no collision with elements of any EOS body is possible)
  6. Canon also announced a II version of the EF 55-200mm 1/4.5-5.6 USM lens. It differs from the (no longer available) I version by the same rear coating of the lens that is implemented in the EF-S 18-55mm lens in order to ommit ghosting when used with a digital SLR. It is a regular EF lens (the EF-S mount is only useful for short focal lengths) and is meant as an ideal comparision for the 300D set. The I version was once presented together with the EOS IX 7 (IX lite in USA), but was no longer in production since the APS line of EOS bodys was cancelled last year.


To me it seems as if Canon has now decided to go into the mass-market of digital SLRs. Until now, no digital SLR is available below 2000$, only pseudo-SLRs like the Minolta DImage series are in that price range (and sell quite good, despite of having problems with image noise since their resolution reached 5MP). Olympus and Kodak are trying to enter the market with the 4/3 system, and it is now the proper time to place a system which is cheap enough even for full-blood amateurs to enter the range of digital imaging with a real SLR. The biggest problem until now was the fact that the use of a D60 or 10D often made it necessary to buy a new, shorter lens with good optical performance. Even the older 20-35mm non-L-lenses did not work so well with the CMOS sensor, and needing to spend additional 1000$ into an EF-L 17-40mm f/4 USM lens made it a lot more expensive to buy an EOS 10D.


Canon is now on the right way to stand against a completely new digital SLR system like the 4/3 System of Kodak and Olympus, and even Nikon tries the same with its specialized line of digital-suited lenses.


To show the dilemma a user of an EOS 10D is in, you can consider the situation that would be if you were restricted to use medium format lenses on your 35mm camera: Every affordable Zoom starts with 45mm, the lens hoods allow far too much light to get into the lens and disturb your image, the flash tries to light a much too large area (Canon's EOS 10D does not take into account that the image circle of the sensor is much smaller than with 35mm and reports a 24mm lens as 24mm to the flash, where a 35mm setting of the flash would by far be enough to cover the imaged area).


I expect that sales of the 300D will soon surpass the sales of the 10D by a factor of 10. Probably in the beginning of the next year Canon will change the 10D to a version with the EF-S mount and bring out more lenses with a range of 15-80mm (approx. 24 to 135mm on 35mm) for the EF-S mount. The telephoto range will be still completely covered by EF lenses, because a specialized EF-S lens makes only sense for normal and wide range prime and zoom lenses, since they are much cheaper in production when the lens back does not need to be as far away from the sensor as with the original EF mount, and optical quality will be better due to the fact that not the whole 44mm of the 35mm image circle has to be covered.


Greetings, Axel

Simon Crosland , August 22, 2003; 06:15 A.M.

Digital Rebel does not allow user to select AF modes(One shot or AI Servo). It uses AI Focus in creative zones, meaning automatic detection and switching between the two.

This is the same as the analogue EOS 300 (Rebel 2000), so is in keeping with Canon's other cameras aimed at this group of users. Whilst it does remove some control from the user, I personally have never had any problems with the AI Focus.

Simon Crosland , August 22, 2003; 06:23 A.M.

If that means that the camera has a metallic lens mount is not yet sure, since all available photos show the body only with a lens mounted.

There are photos of the product launch in Japan that show the body on its own. It has a metal lens mount. See for instance PhotographyBLOG and Rob Galbraith's comparison of the 10D and 300D.

Joao Fonseca , August 22, 2003; 09:19 A.M.

"Does Canon have a full-frame consumer digital SLR in the wings?

No. The EOS 1Ds has a 35mm sensor but this is a camera which suits the highly specialised requirements of a very select group of professional photographers. The strategy for Canon is to design cameras to suit our customer’s needs. So what does full frame really mean? With 6.3 million pixels, the EOS 300D sensor has a resolution which, in most situations, would meet the needs of many professional photographers. At the same time, this sensor size has allowed us to meet our design objective of putting high-end technology into the hands of the consumer. From a technical perspective, putting a 35mm sensor into the EOS 300D would, in most cases, give no advantage to our customers. Yet in doing so we would force the price well out of our target range."

No advantage???? What about people (like me) that already own several lenses and are not too happy with the x1.6 factor introduced by the current sensor?

This statement is bad news. Canon is probably thinking about starting a new line of lenses (already started with the new zoom sold with this camera) instead of putting an effort in bringing the prices down for the 35mm sensors.

If the 300D had a 35mm sensor (and the same price), I would move to digital immediatly. I guess I'll be waiting a few years more...

Regards, João Fonseca

Luigi Moccia , August 22, 2003; 10:19 A.M.

1100 euro for a flimsy body, APS size sensor and 6Mpixel? Excellent, technical innovation is in march. I'm happy about that. In five years I'll switch to digital. Before my estimate was ten years. Why? Well, as an hobbyist my yearly expense in film and processing is around 100 - 200 euro. Print cost is another issue. So in 7 - 8 years with this kind of camera I'll start to save money. What a pity that this camera probably it's not going to last this amount of time. And starting from now I can enjoy 10 - 14 - 22 Mpixel, accordingly the film that I use. Without cropping factor. Without spending a fortune for a wideangle or a ultra-wide. Ecc ecc.. Please rich people, go into digital. Please. So I can buy fine used lens for a dime and you can support the R&D expense of the photo-industry to bring in a short time a full-frame sensor in this price range. Please buy it :-)

Bob Atkins , August 22, 2003; 01:15 P.M.

Axel - Thanks for the very informative update.

Do you have a reference for the 300D having only an AI AF mode even in the "creative zone"? The spec sheet lists one-shot and AI servo modes, though it doesn't explicitly say you can manually select which one is used!

I'm still not sure why the change in backfocus. It's certainly possible to make a 14mm lens with regular backfocus distance (Canon have one) and Nikon have shown it's possible to make a 12mm lens with regular backfocus with their 12-24 lens.

It has to be some sort of economy measure, to keep the price in the cheap consumer zoom down below $100. I don't see Canon developing a line of these lenses and modified bodies to use them. It would make a whole lot more sense to make a 12-24 or 10-30 zoom with regular backfocus distance and just make it a good lens that could sell for, say, $300 and would be likely to be used by D30/60/10D owners. If Canon don't do it, maybe Sigma should step in and do it for them, since they could also make it compatible with the Nikon 1.5x small sensor system and grab two markets at once!

Eric Tischer , August 23, 2003; 03:06 A.M.

http://www.canoneos.com/digitalrebel/download/digitalrebel_bro.pdf

There is the PDF of the 300D sales brochure. Specs say it has a PC socket

I can't wait till Canon releases a 12mm - 35mm EFS, then the "which is better, 10D or 300D" debate will be settled! You folks praising the metal body and rear control dial of your 10D will be shopping for a new camera with an efs mount. Sounds like the 1.6x factor is here to stay.

Im already sold on 300D incase you couldn't tell =)

Erb Duchenne , August 23, 2003; 07:03 A.M.

"I'm still not sure why the change in backfocus. It's certainly possible to make a 14mm lens with regular backfocus distance (Canon have one) and Nikon have shown it's possible to make a 12mm lens with regular backfocus with their 12-24 lens..."

Yes, I think economy is the major factor here. I figure that, like a projector, the closer you move it to the screen (sensor) the smaller the image. Only in this case the smaller the image the wider, because it eliminates the cropping factor. So it's like moving a regular (cheap) 28-90 mm lens closer to the sensor, with only a slight tweak for the right focus.

It's possible that the sole purpose of this cheap lens which only works on the Rebel is to offer a cheap lens & body package pallatable to the mass public, where an extra $200 - $300 could make the difference between attracting them or making them wait several more months and perhaps settle on a competitor's product.

Chad Simpson , August 23, 2003; 07:35 A.M.

Don't jump the gun yet, Eric.

Canon has a large lead in sensor technology, as evidenced by the absence of full size sensors from other brands. Canon is presently waltzing away with the high-end SLR market, and probably a lot of medium format users too. They would be absolutely silly not to continue to exploit this advantage! But if they don't move, their technology lead will evaporate, and they stand to lose tremendous market share.

Consider what would happen if Canon can successfully introduce a full-frame DSLR at a pro-sumer price point before anyone else... The potential exists to grab the majority of the serious amateur market, along with scads more pros and medium format users, luring customers away from other brands and turning them into EF lens consumers and repeat customers down the road. The effects of this market shift could last decades.

In the meantime, I figure Canon will not want to introduce a bunch of EF-S mount lenses, only to turn around a year or two later and offer affordable full-frame sensor bodies which can't take them. There's a reason the 18-55 only comes bundled with the 300D, and it isn't that the 300D is the only camera it fits. My personal prediction is that the EF-S mount and 1.6x sensors have a future only in the inexpensive consumer SLRs (maybe a short-lived future), while full-frame is phased in to the advanced amateur and pro series which will retain the EF mount. The price of the 1Ds illustrates that the technology barrier is formidable but not insurmountable, and I don't know about the rest of you, but I sit here drooling in anticipation, wallet in hand, just waiting for a 1.0x sensor SLR to arrive at a palatable price!

Les Ang , August 23, 2003; 10:53 A.M.

The EOS 300D does have a metal lens mount. =)

Les

Steven Clark , August 23, 2003; 09:14 P.M.

Personally I think the EF-S mount is a very good idea, at least as it is used here. As said before the teleconverterish effect of the cropped sensor makes it harder to get the wide angles but that could be fixed. The easiest way of course would have been to build lenses with reduced image circles but the same mount. The resulting lenses however could be mounted to full frame cameras and either produce really bad images: "Canon sucks! My 8-24mm f4 EF-D produces horrible vigneting on my Elan 7e?" or make the firmware intentionally incompatible: "When I mount my 8-24mm EF-D on my Elan7e it locks up with error code XX". The EF-S mount solves this problem simply by making the crop-factor utterly mechanicly incompatible with full-frame cameras. Also in the process it frees up the potential to use some optical formulas that couldn't otherwise be used on an SLR due to protruding elements, personally I would like to see a 42 f1.7 EF-S for say $70. Of course there are then those who complain about glass investment and compatibility with the rest of the system. If pro EF-S lenses were to be produced this would be a serious problem as you might have a $1k or more lens tied to a single body. I agree, if Canon were to produce lenses like that it would be a very bad idea. On the other hand if Canon keeps entirely to consumer-priced lenses in this category (which seems likelier than not given the evidence of the moment) that simply won't be a very big issue. I'm almost certain most users of the 300d wouldn't have more money in EF-S glass tham the camera cost them, even if they stayed within the bounds of this mount.

Bob Atkins , August 24, 2003; 01:45 A.M.

My guess is that Canon won't make any more EF-S lenses. There's simply no need to. The EF55-200 they have announced for the 300D is in a standard EF mount and will fit any EOS body. I would imagine that will be the case for all other low end consumer lenses too. Since they now have 18-55 covered they don't need short backfocus for any other lens. The old 22-55 low end consumer zoom sold with APS bodies worked just fine on all EOS bodies and was $100. I presume the only reason that wasn't an 18-55 and this one is is that without the short backfocus they couldn't make it really cheap. They can clearly make really cheap lenses from 22mm on up with standard backfocus and mount, so I assume that's what they'll do since the same lenses can then be sold to Rebel film body owners.

Dominic Messiha , August 25, 2003; 07:51 P.M.

This is too tempting. I was planning to wait until Canon had a sub-$1500 1.3x body out there before making the jump, but I never anticipated that I'd be able to get 6.3MP for $900 just six months after the 10D. Of course, it really makes me wonder what else Canon has up their sleeves.

I'm seriously questioning buying another film body at this point in the game. As it is, my EOS 5, which is a fantastic camera, is probably a steal on the secondary market at about $250 or so.

Dominic Messiha , August 26, 2003; 12:08 P.M.

Very interesting comments, Axel. <p> Another point in favor of the 300D, and in favor of saving the $600 vs. the 10D, is that with $900 invested, there is much less downside potential than with a 10D. Important given that I would probably turn around and sell the 300D in no more than two years, probably for about $300-$400, is my guess. Just ask anyone who bought a D30 for $3000 a few years back how important re-sale value is.

jerome davin , August 27, 2003; 06:02 P.M.

What is the largest print size you can achieve on photographic paper with the 300D?

Axel Farr , August 28, 2003; 10:53 A.M.

To reply on some questions which occured on my posting:

The main reason for Canon to introduce the EF-S mount was certainly the price. You have to imagin the following: Canons consumer lenses are (as the lenses in the same segment of Nikon or Pentax or whomever) not of a quality you expect from an "L" class lens. E.g. the EF 28-90mm 1/3.5-5.6 lens is probably capable of resolving some 6Megapixels on 35mm negs, but not more - on the APS-C sensor size this would mean, that it is good enough for 4 MPixels (the quality in the center of a lens is usually better than on the rim). A lens in the non-L-section which is good enough is probably only the EF 28-135mm IS USM lens, but that costs around 700€ here in Germany, the EF 28-90mm costs around 200€ if bought separately and some 120€ together with an EOS 300 or 30.

The only real EF lens which is half-way useable and in the appropriate price range was the EF 22-55mm, originally designed for the APS body EOS IX 7 (or IX lite as it was called in the US). This lens is really used by some owners of an EOS D30 or D60, because it is more affordable than an EF 17-35 L lens and offers a wider zoom range than an EF 20-35mm lens. But the 22mm at the short end are some 35mm with a 1.6x format factor, so this lens is more like an 35-80mm lens. And in front of a 6 MPixel sensor it would probably resolve only around 2 to 3 MPixels if not stopped down to at least f/8 or f/11. So Canon had to create a cheap lens, which has at least the resolving power of an EF 28-135mm lens, but does neither need to cover the entire 35mm image circle nor should it fit to existing 35mm bodies (and perhaps not to higher class bodies like the EOS 10D in order not to reduce the market for an EF 17-40mm lens).

To avoid professional photographers from buying the EOS 300D, some limitations have been introduced to the body, the same which made me buy an EOS 30 instead of an EOS 300 as my favorite body: You can neither set AF mode nor exposure measurement yourself, the cameras sets it for you. And to make it cheaper, the body is made of plastic instead of metal. To make it even more cheaper, the same imaging components are used as with the 10D.

But for those who do not want to wait for Canon to bring out an EOS 30D with an EF-S mount and a lens with a (35mm equiv.) zoom range of 28-105mm and ring-USM, the 300D will probably be the body to buy. I myself are thinking about replacing my EOS IX with the 300D, since the IX itself lacks some things the 300D has. My EOS 30 will not be replaced by any digital body, since I still want to have a camera to photograph on slide film.

What the future of the EF-S mount will be depends a little bit on what is happening now: If the number of sold EOS 10D drops significantly after introduction of the 300D, then Canon will very soon replace the EOS 10D by a Camera with the same capabilities, but with an EF-S mount. If Canon is of the opinion, that prosumers and pros who want a better body than an EOS 300D have to spend some more money into their lenses, they will continue the EOS 10D until it really hurts them too much.

I suppose the EOS 10D will be replaced in spring 2004. And to those who do not want to carry around a set of EF-S lenses (for the digital body) and a set of EF lenses (for the analog body): Be shure, there will allways be lenses like the EF 17-40mm which fit to both systems, but also be shure that 6 MPixels will not be the last word on an 0.65x sized sensor. And 10 MPixels on such a sensor are difficult to use if you do not have specialized lenses for them. So one direction Canon may enter might be to enhance the resolution for the next series of prosumer-D-SLRs to around 8 or 10 MPixels and to introduce the EF-S mount on them together with lenses of better resolution (like an EF-S 17-85mm 1/3.5-5.6 IS USM or an EF-S 17-45mm 1/2.8 (L?) USM). With digital, once you optimize the lenses you need not neccessarily have full-frame to resolve 10MPixels.

Greetings, Axel

brian jackson , August 28, 2003; 01:05 P.M.

""Does Canon have a full-frame consumer digital SLR in the wings?

No. The EOS 1Ds has a 35mm sensor but this is a camera which suits the highly specialised requirements of a very select group of professional photographers. The strategy for Canon is to design cameras to suit our customer’s needs. "

Canon has to get that full frame camera in the hands of it's other professional base(all of us sports shooters out there) before the consumers get one :)

The "replacement" for the 1D, that everyone's anticipating to be announced shortly(including me, who's used the 1D for 14 months now), I'm thinking it'll be called the 1Df, as in "field". Right before Canon announced the 1Ds ('studio'), they were touting the 1D as the "best field camera". This is why I'm thinking the next camera will be the 1Df. Semantics, I understand, but at least logical semantics :)

Hoping for 8fps, 8MP, full frame-sensor, same body, orientation sensor (that actually stores the image correctly and not just display the thumbnail in the right direction!) and produce an in-camera JPEG around 3-4megs.

Don't know if I'll wait and get the new camera or pick up an extra 1D as the prices start to fall. $2200 would be a great price. ;-)>

For those of you who are saying you should have waited for the 300D and NOT bought your 10D, what camera were you using before? If you were shooting a Rebel, then you upgraded to a digital Elan. If you were shooting an Elan...you just got rid of your film/development costs. If you were shooting any of the EOS-1 models or EOS-3, then you downgraded.

Jamie, hit it on the head with the digital body -> film body comparison. The 300D(digital rebel) IS NOT going to be the same thing as a 10D, they aren't built the same nor are they targeted at the same customers. Ok, maybe but not really, that's why the 2 different cameras exist: different markets. I would NEVER consider buying a 300D, but might consider a 10D as a backup camera to the 1D, the 300D just wouldn't hold up to the rigors of a location shoot. Whereas I have friends who have film Rebels right now and I've told them to wait for this camera to hit the market. It'll do exactly what they want it to do.

I think Canon is right on, with 4 different levels of digital cameras. people who need a slow camera to produce huge images, fast rugged camera to produce large images, semi-pro/advanced am/pro backup camera, and the basic SLR.

feelin good , August 28, 2003; 05:09 P.M.

A few considerations from my side: A) Everibody is impressed by the price set by Canon, but the Fuji digital reflex is already available in the US at 999$. B) Between the 899$ of the 300D and the 8000$ (even worse when you consider the european prices), there is a price factor of 9, while in terms of features and funtionality (6.5 mio pixels vs 12; APS like sensor vs Full Frame; 2,5 fps vs 6; plastic vs aluminium) the D1s is surely more performing but far from being 9 times better. Consider Toyota vs Lexus!! C) Taking in consideration what stated before, stay away for a while from the D1s, they will either discount it heavily or introduce soon a performing mode (so to say a EOS 3 alike) D) The law of Moore and the industrial rump up will soon adsorb the price differential between the small abd the full frame sensor. Why Canon embarked in the development of a new optical line? will they repeat the flop of the IXUS SLR? What's the quality of these B class gimmicks?

For sure the step made by Canon is the prelude to their decision in stopping soon the production of film camera (tragic moment). For sure they targetted by the 300D the requirents of a market segment, but definitively not evolved users or prosumers. The segment must be smaller than foreseen and they will probably cannibalize some of their own G5 prospects.

So far i cannot see a real term of competitiveness allowing Canon to repeat the success of the AE line of the 80's, as underlined by their management last week in London.

Hope to read your opinons.

Ciao

Bob Atkins , August 30, 2003; 02:54 A.M.

The Fuji S2 retails at $1999 from the major reputable photo stores. You can probably find it for a couple of hundred dollars less, but still more than the 10D.

I don't think Canon have started a new optical line. I see the 18-55 as a "one off" lens simply to have something cheap to sell with the 300D as a kit. I'd be quite surprised to see any more EF-S lenses or EF-S bodies.

Canon are quite clearly leading the DSLR market. Whether that will change with new offerings from Olympus, Pentax, Nikon and others remains to be seen. My guess is that it won't. I see Canon taking the lion's share of the DSLR market, just as they did with the film market in the 1990s. Nikon will still have a strong presence but the others will be "also rans", just like with film. Possibly good or even great camera, but not getting the market share that Canon and Nikon do.

Christoph Marquardt , August 31, 2003; 03:12 P.M.

Whatever the pros out there might say.. I'm very happy for this camera to be out soon. Why? Well, I guess I'm exactly the kind of target customer that Canon has been aiming for with the 300D. I'm an ambitioned amateur. I've been doing SLR photography since I was 14. I'm a technical enthusiast. When digital became available I was desperately looking for some kind of digital film / digital back for my film SLR, but all the things that were announced either didn't make it to the marked or turned out to not really be what I expected.

One day I bought a cheapo 2.3MP point-and-click camera (well, not too cheapo, but my first step towards digital) .. just for those occasions where you wanna take snapshots.. and even though picture quality, techology was still way below my standards, I was instantly hooked to digital photography. Reason? The simplicity of handling. No film, no development, no having to think about the cost of shooting pics, not having to wait for pics to be developed..

Being an audio pro, I'd like to compare this with the development that we've seen in my area of expertise in the 80s. When the CD hit the market in the early/mid 80s, it wasn't perfect, but from my point of view, it had one major advantage over analog: Easy handling.

From an audio point of view, I've looked back to analog quite some times, comparing developments, seeing what had changed.. 'cos when doing the step from analog to digital, you obviously give up a bit of dynamics and resultion at first (in both, audio and photography) and some things need to be looked at from other angles. Recent developments in the audio field managed to make up for a lot of this, and you can now for example put a perceived 19-bit of dynamics on a 16-bit medium (the CD) .. and finally new media have arrived with 24bit/96kHz audio, dynamics and resolution that go far beyond human perception.

One thing that I'm more than sure about is that similar developments are bound to follow in photography sooner or later.

In the audio field, after overcoming the first obstactles, and after having learned to use the new digital medium in a way that makes sense, I have *never* looked back again, and I have *never* regretted to have taken the step from analog to digital.

But back to photography.. to make a long story short, the 300D is spot on for me. It's what I've been waiting for since I first had that 2.3MP digital cam in my hands 3 or 4 years ago.. I've been watching the press, I've been reading announcements, but I've never been able or willing to shed out $2-3k for a DSLR that would staisfy my amateur standards.

From all I've heard and seen so far, I'm positive that the 300D will.

Quality wise and price wise.

Just my not-so-pro $.02 ;)

Christoph from Germany

Steve Rosenblum , August 31, 2003; 04:38 P.M.

I am hoping that the 300D will make a good street shooter. I plan to mount a 24/2.8 lens on it (which will give me a 38mm equiv.) and use it for candid photography. The 10D is too big and heavy for this use and other digicams have too long of an autofocus/shutter delay to capture the "decisive moment". I think this combination will be small, inobtrusive, and fast enough to finally fill the bill. If it does you are going to see a lot of my rangefinder gear on sale.

ian davies , September 04, 2003; 02:18 P.M.

So, as a European reluctant to spend over the odds, (ie: £1000 as opposed to 1000$), is there any reason for me not to get as US version of this camera, as opposed to the European version?

Or am I getting something extra for my extra ~$450?

Simon Crosland , September 05, 2003; 10:42 A.M.

>Or am I getting something extra for my extra ~$450?

First have you checked out the shipping and customs tax that you will pay by importing a US camera? For instance, UK customs will impose 17.5% tax on import.

Assuming that you have taken that into account, the one thing that you will not have from a US camera is a warranty that is valid in Europe - historically Canon have not honoured US warranties outside the US.

Finally, have you checked out local prices? For instance the street price of the 300D in the UK is now around £750. See for instance http://www.parkcameras.com and http://uk.pricerunner.com.

Jose Gil , September 08, 2003; 11:27 P.M.

Saw on www.techbargains.com EOS Digital Rebel for $900 including 18-55 lens at www.compusa.com after their 10% digital cameras $199 up on-line coupon.

I personally couldn't find the camera on the web site, but they do list the 10D.

This plus 6 mo 0% financing makes it look pretty good.

LH Foo , September 09, 2003; 01:29 A.M.

The full review at http://www.dpreview.com is up !!!

Haris Dobardzic , September 12, 2003; 01:24 P.M.

"Riverside - you wont see an interchangable film/digital back for an EOS. The internal design of the film and digital cameras are very different - they have been developed from the ground up (unlike the D30 which they used the base of film eos to start on)"

Check digital back for Leica R8/R9. I would LOVE to have simillar thing for my EOS3...

R Cook , October 08, 2003; 03:18 A.M.

Prices are already coming down .... Just bought the 300D from online dist. , in Brooklyn, NY for 639 USD. That was with the lens, also.

Marcelo Dapino , April 16, 2004; 03:08 P.M.

I'll break the ice. I have owned a Digital Rebel since January as a complement to my EOS film bodies (EOS 1n and 3). The quality is excellent so the camera is highly recommended. My main gripe however is that the camera is slow. Everything with this camera is deliberate as it takes several button presses to get settings changed, most notably the selection of AF points which involves pressing a little button and spinning the front dial; the seven points then appear sequentially. On the EOS 1n, I just spin the dial in the back and voila, no button-pressing is involved. The AF speed on the Rebel is adequate, and so is the burst speed. However, the buffer is small if you shoot in RAW mode (which I do). It's quite frustrating that the buffer always seems to fill up in the exact moment when the light or person's expression is just right. All in all however this is a very nice little camera, and a lot of fun to shoot with.

Bas Scheffers , April 16, 2004; 05:18 P.M.

Good to see a review by someone who actualy knows and practices photography and focusses on how you can get the job done with the DRebel rather than keep hammering on how "Canon has cripled it to sell more 10Ds" or the build quality.

To comment to the above comment about speed, I have found it to be incredibly important to get fast cards. This will make the camera work much faster. With my 45X Transcend I rarely run into frame rate problems. Granted, it is not film, but it is a lot better than friends' and family's DRebels I have handled with slower cards. You run out of frames very quickly if you re-use your no-brand 3 year old 256MB card!

Marcelo Dapino , April 16, 2004; 10:02 P.M.

To comment on the comment which refers to my original comment (phew!), I use the DR with a new 1GB Lexar 42X card, so card quality is not the problem. Incidentally, my card has Lexar's WA technology, which if I recall correctly is not fully exploited on the DR. Can someone confirm this? I researched this topic a while back and haven't looked at this since.

Bob Atkins , April 17, 2004; 12:13 A.M.

Neither the 10D nor the 300D (Digital Rebel) support WA (write acceleration). In fact I don't think any Canon DSLR supports WA at the moment.

Erb Duchenne , April 19, 2004; 03:31 P.M.

The Digital Rebel has been out for over 6 months, but the reviews are just coming in now? What gives?

Anyway... good read. I've owned a 300D since September last year (2003). It's the bestest best best Rebel yet... and 'no fair!' to those who still keep comparing it to the EOS 1's and EOS 30's. I have a film Rebel too... and compared to that the Digital Rebel stands reaaaaal tall.

Laura E. Napolitano , April 20, 2004; 05:25 P.M.

I love it so much...since it's digital I can work with its flaws. I wish there was a b+w mode though, because even a film SLR can offer that! :)

I also don't like the strap -- it cuts into my little soft neck and the "Digital EOS" in large lettering gives me filthy looks and envious stares...not good for a high petty-crime area like NYC. :(

Bob Atkins , April 20, 2004; 05:44 P.M.

What gives?

Waht gives is I just got my hands on one. I'd be very happy indeed to review any EOS camera on the day it is released. Just buy one and send it to me. Getting review samples out of Canon on any popular new high end item is like pulling teeth. Not easy and not fun. Photo.net is not yet high on their reviewer list for high demand stuff. Photo magazines, pro spokespersons, high profile photographers and dedicated "gearhead" sites all come before photo.net.

Bas Scheffers , April 21, 2004; 03:30 A.M.

Laura, a black and white mode would be the same as using Photoshop to convert to black and white. The only difference being that with PS you can leave your filters at home and use the channel mixer with much higher precision instead!

Stanley Rogouski , April 21, 2004; 01:42 P.M.

"The Digital Rebel has been out for over 6 months, but the reviews are just coming in now? What gives?"

There were reviews of the Rebel on Photo.net back in September and a very extensive one on dpreview.com at about the same time.

The Rebel got reviewed pretty quickly but interestingly enough the big digital photography sites seem to have dropped the ball on the D70 and Mark II. But, then again, how much do reviews really matter? Canon and Nikon pretty much set the standards are where are you going to go if you own Canon or Nikon lenses and their latest offering sucks. What's more, you have to get on a waiting list anyway, so by the time you get to buy a D70 or Mark II you'll know all about it from the web.

The reviews seem a bit more useful for high end point and shoots since you may want a compact 8 megapixel even if you own Canon or Nikon lenses and in this case you can pretty much buy any one you want.

Stanley Rogouski , April 21, 2004; 01:49 P.M.

"Laura, a black and white mode would be the same as using Photoshop to convert to black and white. The only difference being that with PS you can leave your filters at home and use the channel mixer with much higher precision instead!"

I've had pretty good luck with Photoshop and black and white. The Rebel's big sensor gives you room to sharpen and add contrast in a way that a fixed lens digicam wouldn't. This is at ISO 400. It prints with almost no degregdation at 8 x 10 and strikes me as being capable of going up to 16 x 20.

Laura E. Napolitano , April 23, 2004; 07:05 P.M.

Gorgeous shot, Stanley...my comment didn't make sense when I looked back at it now. :) I have had better luck with converting in black and white. Thing is, I like the grayscale mode because it lets me test the potential for a shot...sometimes, something in color won't look so great, but to see a shot in b+w can take a new spin on things...do you know what I'm saying? Like in a sense, the visualization of the potential grayscale image in my mind is much different from the reality of actually photographing a grayscale image.

Stanley Rogouski , April 24, 2004; 04:24 P.M.

A lot of my black and white shots turn into black and white shots because I can't get the white balance right or because of sensor blooming.

Sensor blooming is the one area where I think a film camera beats a Rebel/10D/D70 class camera. However fast your lens is sensor blooming can kill many a good night shot.

I'm not quite sure if the Rebel/10D can really be used for serious landscape work. I'm sure there are people who use both but I'm wondering if a used Mamiya 645 and a 1500 dollar film scanner would beat the 10/Rebel and EOS lenses for more or less the same price.

As far as candid available light photographs go however the Rebel's almost perfect.

Amir Mohebi , April 26, 2004; 05:31 A.M.

Also consider that when you have a small card and on event/location photography, BW mode gives you opportunity to shoot more, because lack of RGB data in Jpegs can make your files a lot smaller. It would make you cure when your remaining shot indicator shows say 9 shots and you want more, and when you change to BW mode, you'll have some nice extra shots available. this problem seems to be of minor issue with todays large capacity cards.

Paul Heaton , June 15, 2004; 03:13 P.M.

I do not understand all the hub-bub about canon creating a new series of lenses or "so much for compatibility". I purchased the EOS 300D with just the 18-55 lens included in the kit. I already owned a 35mm EOS 630 film camera but had not used it since purchasing my first digital (Olympus 490Z). But I sorely missed the features on my EOS. When I received my new 300D, I popped on my old 35-135 zoom lens, and it worked flawlessly, taking just as good digitals as the EOS 630 did with film, maybe even better. I don't see a problem with the 1.6 conversion, the 18-55 would translate to approximately 28-88 which is a pretty good wide angle to normal shot mode. My 35-135 translates to 56 - 216 which is a pretty good all around zoom range. I keep it on the camera for normal shots, and switch to the 18-55 for group shots or when I am in tight quarters and need the wider angle. I think Canon has kept compatability with their older lenses just fine. This is a great digital.

Ben Plewes , July 08, 2004; 09:12 A.M.

I'm sure the images produced by this camera are good but god is it ugly! I held one in my local camera shop yesterday. There is no way I could justify spending ?700 on something that feels like a ?130 35mm slr designed for someone who's just starting out. The ergonomics are just awful. It's one big ugly lump of grey plastic! I'd say spend the extra and don't consider anything less than a D70. If you can't afford it stick to film until prices come down further!

Blake Singleton , July 27, 2004; 08:01 P.M.

To comment on the above statement:

Sounds to me like someone was LOOKING for bad things to say about this camera.

Now, on with the rating:

I've owned the DRebel for about a month now, and have had no problems with it at all. I am a little agitated that it comes with no B&W mode. Even the $90 1.5MP cameras sold at Wal-Mart have B&W modes. Despite this minor flaw, I have no complaints. My pictures have come out perfect, for the most part. The only problem I've had that I can complain about is I set the processing colors wrong and all of my first weeks worth of pictures came out muted. I've since fixed that, and now I'm on my happy little way.

Terry Manning , July 28, 2004; 04:36 P.M.

I am a little distressed that a lack of B/W mode is considered a shortcoming by some respondents when most SERIOUS photographers appreciate being able to convert from color mode themselves, instead of letting the camera do it for them. Just because this camera has a point-and-shoot mode does not mean it is a point-and-shoot camera. I'm certain Canon and the makers of any other digital SLR consider their prospective buyers in deciding the features they make available. If B/W was such an important feature, they'd have included it. As it is, the Digital Rebel is a fine camera. With good glass, it's a great camera.

Oleg Volk , July 29, 2004; 05:25 P.M.


10D image edited in channel mixer

I think that capturing in B&W would be a waste of data...but having a B&W LCD mode, perhaps with a few "filters" selectable might help some people.

Steve Foster , August 02, 2004; 11:29 P.M.

"If you can't afford it stick to film until prices come down further"

That is a bit unfair and a bit elitist wouldn't you say? My friend bought one a month or so ago and I've had time to play with it. In my opinion it is an excellent value, probably the best out there for a d