Leni Riefenstahl, 'Five Lives' - my latest aquisition - a few comments

"However the paper is nice and it's stitched. And overall the book has a nice feel to it while it's being carried. Its appearance is nice, too."

Hitler would be so proud, so glad that people still appreciate Leni Riefenstahl's work, such as Triumph of the Will.

You don't have any problems with the fact that she created Nazi propaganda? That Triumph of the Will, which you select for iconic inclusion, was Nazi propaganda?

Best, Helen

Please don't let us start another Nazi/Riefenstahl debate now. This has been debated on several threads earlier.

Karim, do you think you're ready to quit your day job & become a book reviewer?

Helen, a work of art can be appreciated on many different levels. For instance, the Deerhunter is a pack of lies and slanders about the Vietnamese, probably one of the most dishonest films ever made, and yet it is still a masterpiece that never fails to move me deeply whenever I watch it. Art works beyond its merely political dimensions, although I would be the last to say that it is apolitical. That said, I haven't seen Triumph of the Will, so I don't know whether I'd appreciate it or not.

Helen, a work of art can be appreciated on many different levels. For instance, the Deerhunter is a pack of lies and slanders about the Vietnamese, probably one of the most dishonest films ever made, and yet it is still a masterpiece that never fails to move me deeply whenever I watch it. Art works beyond its merely political dimensions, although I would be the last to say that it is apolitical. That said, I haven't seen Triumph of the Will, so I don't know whether I'd appreciate it or not.

"However the tonal values in some images seem lacking in range"

I find this a bizare critisism due to the fact of the age of her work and the fim emulsions and paper available at that time, unless you want them doctored and not a real representation of her work.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0078CL

Great book.. I gave it away to a good friend, and considered instantly to buy a 2nd..

Alas, politics... Remember photographer Helmut Newton, who has to immigrate from Nazi-Germany as a jew, was a good friend of Leni Riefenstahl...

We appreciate her art since she was a great actress, movie maker, photograph, not as a political person. The allied denazification tribune found out that Riefenstahl wasn't member of *any* political group or Nazi-organisation. Because she did that propaganda-film for Hitler she was famed as a Nazi in post-war Germany for 50 years, didn't get any engagement yet (in opposite to others) because of this one terrible film at a time 4 years before the war when 95% of all Germans were pro-Hitler. It took half a century for the people here to understand that 80 years of an artist was more then "Triumph of the will", which is after all a brillant made film appealing two issues: peace and work, which turned out totally wrong afterwards. This film shows what people (42.7% in Jan.1933) moved to vote for Hitler. History shows how they were mislead. The last one responsible for that crime and tragedy are artists.

just my 2c, Frank (Germany)

Thats a great book.

As has been exhaustively discussed over the years, "Triumph of the Will" is a visual masterpiece, despite its sinister political context. Interesting, too, how its emotional impact remains undiminished, though transformed from "triumphant" to "chilling".

Perhaps inevitably, Riefenstahl's post-war reputation as a still photographer has suffered greatly from her Nazi-connected past. Some of her African work is outstanding, and deserves to be considered on its own merits.

David, you are absolutely true about the "Nuba" pictures... I clearly remember these pictures published in the STERN magazine (mid. 70's) - first German magazine who dared to print Riefenstahl pictures, 30 years after the war... About 10 years old, these pictures impressed me so much that I started reading all I could get about African people, "primitive"(?) cultures and ethnographic stuff... These were STRONG pictures indeed, full of beauty, but no Nazi work whatsoever.. discovered it again in that book.

and, holy moly, ernst leitz himself gave her her first leica as a gift before the olypic games 1936.

..and Carl Zeiss invented the "Olympia-Sonnar"!

Leni was involved with the Nazi party. This is self-evident as she even admitted to this while claiming not to be a Nazi (Clintonian word parsing...) Did she ever apologize or condemn the crimes the Nazis perpetrated on tens of millions of people. Did she ever speak out and use her influential position? Did she make any attempt to save a victim.? The answers are all no. To her dying day, she DENIED any knowledge, involvement or complicity in any evil deed. We should not honor her in any way. If we do, then by the same twisted logic, someone should say a few nice words about Hitler's watercolors or architectural sketches.

I have to admit that I was quite surprised by Hitler's watercolours - not bad, although he was no Picasso.

Albert - since the vast majority of Germans were pro-Hitler in the thirties, do you think they should preface everything in the rest of their lives with apologies for what that monster and his henchmen did? Maybe all Brits should apologise personally for the atrocities perpetrated in the name of civilisation by the British Empire? Or Americans for the genocidal war on South East Asia?

Did Riefenstahl personally take part in any massacres or killings? If not, she is as blameless of them as any conscript, no matter what her political standpoint or convictions.

I refuse to take you seriously, Albert, as a human being or doctor, until you publically apologise for Abu Ghraib and the Contra atrocities. In the meantime, allow me to kick off this cathartic round of self-purification by proffering my apologies for the Great Bengal Famine. That feels so good.

Albert wrote: "We should not honor her in any way. If we do, then by the same twisted logic, someone should say a few nice words about Hitler's watercolors or architectural sketches."

If we think Hitler's art was good, we shouldn't hesitate to say so. However, art critic and historian Robert Hughes's comments seem to be accurate: of Hitler's work, he describes it as technically semi-competent but overall rather kitch.

Personally I think the fact that people can paint and draw at all is wonderful. I couldn't paint or draw to save my life.

Albert, of course she was "involved" somewhat to make that party congress film.

Yes it costs her much to say "sorry", but I think at least in her last years she could do it to some extend.. There is a 3 hours-documentary film about her work which ends with *at least* a word of regret and sorry. She also admitted that she was convinced to Hitler until the war. I think this is honest. It is well known that she cancelled her job as war reporter immediatly after she saw the cruels oft the Wehrmacht in Poland. Maybe it was her tragedy she was too weak, ambitious, opportunistic to opposit against Hitler.

About "Triumph des Willens", this film was made 1935, received a documentary film medal in Cannes 1936 (free France!). Hitler got a good reputation all over the world, notably at conservatives people since he jailed Communists... Leni ever denied this as a "propaganda" film because it lacks commentary. I saw that film hair-rising but at least it is excellent made. It has to be looked at to understand Hitlers seductive power...

In 20 years, we'll be having this same discussion about DVD box sets from FoxNews and whether or not Roger Ailes, Brit Hume, Bill O'Reilly and all the other goons bear responsibility for Bush's war crimes.

I literally cannot believe how many people can even today tar the entire Hitler-voting German population with the same brush that sane people reserve for the Nazi core. I look forward with interest to see if Chinese history books will be so simple-minded about today's Bush-voting America. (Though I gather Hitler was a slightly more sophisticated wooer of the public: can't remember Leni Riefenstahl's films making fun of grown men on bicycles...)

You beat me to it, Preston...

It's too easy, really.

Going back in time, don't forget that Beethoven originally dedicated his Eroica symphony to Napoleon. Yes, he later chucked that proposal, but does any of that history have any effect on our liking the piece or not?

It is obvious, I hope, that no one would assert a moral equivalence between Bush and Hitler. Still, the point remains that artists living under *whatever* regime should have the merits of their work judged independently of the political rulers of the time. Where propaganda is a primary objective of the art, then of course that becomes part of the criteria to be weighed in evaluating the artistic merits. But, as in Riefenstahl's case, if additional work lies outside the realm of propagandistic intent, then I think it highly unfair to dismiss the lot based on political motives from a half century earlier.

Unfair is the right word. Living in countries with free speech is no own merrit.. Oppinion is cheap nowadays. It wasn't so in the "3rd Reich". Some people did crimes and cruels. Some people did whatever they were told. Some pretend to know nothing, said nothing and did nothing. And some, few, at least made art.

Fortunatly I wasn't in this situation, so I cannot convict artists for making art instead of helping people (as, how I read, Leitz did for his jewish workers). Alas... Leni did not. Maybe she did what she could best... does that affect her art?

We are all products of the times in which we live. Leni Riefenstahl, like most Germans, was clearly swept up in Hitler's vision of a "Gross Deutschland" rising from the ashes of World War I, the Versailles Treaty, and economic depression. She never joined the Nazi party, but she glorified it in her films. Hitler gave the German people optimism for a while even though he was driven by hatred and overreaching personal ambition, traits which eventually led to genocide, military defeat, and phenomenal destruction. World War II killed many millions and also left many millions of "survivors" with damaged bodies, psyches, and, yes, reputations. Compared to most, Leni Riefenstahl got off lightly. In the post World War II period she tried to rationalize her life and her existence as best she could. But there was no explanation that was fully satisfactory or acceptable.

How unfortunate that we all cannot walk in Leni's shoes before we dare to question her political motivations. She was first and foremost a fine artist, photographer, film maker and environmentalist who spent the greatest part of her life trying to atone for her early alliances.

Another Bob has an interesting point: do we tar al germans for the crimes of the second world war? the reasonable answer is of course not. Only leaders, enablers as well as perpetratrors of homocidal/genocidal acts fit the bill. Leni was an enabler. Did she ever bother to claim that she didn't know Jews were being forced out socially and financially in the EARLY years of the Reich as a result of the widely published Nuremburg laws of '33 and '35? Did she not read the mainstream newspapers (and I don't count Der Sturmer or Der Angriff in this group) that villified and dehumanized jews, gypsies and homosexuals day after day? Did she not know of the re-militarization of Germany that began in 1934 in direct violation of the Versailles treaty of 1919? Did she not know of the early network of concentration camps set up in Germany (as opposed to the death camps that came later)? Afterall, Dachau was IN FULL SWING by the end of 1933 and Buchenwald, situated five miles from the epicenter of Deutshe Kultur, Weimar, was operational soon after. Both of these camps were not only well known and feared by the Volk but equally publicized by the foreign press.That these events and facts were obvious to her and that she responded by helping the nazi regime by glorifying it and giving it artistic credibility will always redound to her eternal shame. This is and will be the ultimate judgement made by history despite all of her postwar protests of innocence where never a single ADMISSION OF COMPLICITY, GUILT OR REMORSE was ever heard. I am not saying that Leni should have protested outright as this would have written her ticket to one of the work/concentration camps and wrecked her prized career, but she did not have to feed the beast. As to your assertions about her personally taking part in the massacres etc..., I say that an enabler is just as guilty as the thug who puuls the trigger. Leni was such an enabler. As to the British Empire or the war in Iraq, yes, those in charge as well as the enablers and the actual soldiers who carried out atrocities should have to answer for them. Leni never did.

You obviously have very strong feelings about this, and have expressed them forcefully and well.

However, did you miss Frank's post above, where he said:

"Yes it costs her much to say "sorry", but I think at least in her last years she could do it to some extend.. There is a 3 hours-documentary film about her work which ends with *at least* a word of regret and sorry. She also admitted that she was convinced to Hitler until the war. I think this is honest. It is well known that she cancelled her job as war reporter immediatly after she saw the cruels oft the Wehrmacht in Poland. Maybe it was her tragedy she was too weak, ambitious, opportunistic to opposit against Hitler."

I haven't personally seen the documentary that Frank refers to, but I certainly take him at his word that Riefenstahl offered at least a halting expression of regret.

An "enabler" is perhaps an apt term for her role before the war, and clearly she turned a blind eye to the signs of terror and brutality all around her.

But again, it seems to me that the real question is whether her photographic work fifty years on from the war should be completely villified and dismissed, as you insist, on the basis of her admittedly skewed moral compass during the Nazi time.

In psychological terms (not to paint too fine a diagnostic picture of this, mind you), one might argue that her environmental and anthropological activism in later years attests in part to her need to compensate behaviorally for earlier moral shortcomings. Sometimes reaction formation is the nearest a tortured soul can come to a full confessional reckoning.

David: ".......one might argue that her environmental and anthropological activism in later years attests in part to her need to compensate behaviorally for earlier moral shortcomings."

And one might also argue, if one has even the most cursory knowledge of German history, that her environmental and anthropological concerns were actually a reflection of the fact that she never shook off her Nazi past.

I think "enabler" is a pretty vague term, which might apply to anyone from a member of the Nazi party to someone who didn't have the convictions/courage or were prepared to pay the very high price required to actively resist. As another example, we all accept and profit from a state of affairs that perpetuates appalling global economic and social inequalities, and in that sense we are all guilty of "enabling" that condition. If you spread it thin enough, no-one is innocent.

There is no doubt on her guilt, but I wonder to which extend... I held her for a Nazi until I saw that documentation. Then I bought the set of her films (edited from a French-German culture TV channel called ARTE) and Triumph des Willens to make my own oppinion.

This changed my mind. For a political person, I would not have accepted such an "excuse" for beeing involved in the cruel-regime. I'm a political person but I found out she was none.

Yes, soon after Hitlers election saw the first concentration camps for political other otherway unwanted persons.. but Auschwitz 10 years later was another category. The Hitler regime 1936 was worldwide accepted.. particular conservatives were happy that Germany put all Communists into jail and would do the same if they could...

Leni came from a Film ecole around Arnold Fanck who was the first making dramatic nature and mountain films. A legendary film maker in the 1920's, but no friend with the Nazis. Ironically he was also banned in PostWar-Germany because his aesthetics was blamed to be fascistic... (even he saw no engagement in the "3rd Reich") As a PhD in sciences, he kept his living as a lumberman at age, died as a poor man in the 1970's in Postwar Germany..

Leni's Nuba pictures were blamed to be "fascistic aesthetics". Helmut Newton who as a jew emmigrated from the Nazis was ironically blamed the same. I wonder why not the old Greeks 700 before Christ were blamed the same. Indeed Leni's Olympia starts with fadings of Greek statues of heroes and modern athlets where you hardly can find out which is which...

IMHO, before blaming someones style as "fascistic" you firstly need a discussion what aestetics, beauty, art is all about...

And , sorry to say, I firmly believe that politics couldn't contribute to that matter in a substantial extend... so lets shut politics down for a while. Or, if you even want, better think about a *living* political leader and his kind of truth. Leni and Hitler are both dead. If there is such a thing as "danger coming from ideas" (which I personally doubt) they will come from a complete other side next time.

You wrote: "And one might also argue, if one has even the most cursory knowledge of German history, that her environmental and anthropological concerns were actually a reflection of the fact that she never shook off her Nazi past."

I'd like to believe that I have considerably more than a cursory knowledge of German history. I must confess, however, that the point of your remark about Riefenstahl eludes me. Are you suggesting that her activism in later life was inspired by some kind of sinister Nazi agenda? (That would seem absurd in the extreme.) Or are you suggesting that her lingering unacknowledged guilt from the Nazi associations of her youth may have motivated her later in life to become an activist for worthy causes. (On that we would be in agreement, as that was precisely the point of my speculations.)

David, as you're claiming to have a solid grounding in German history I'm baffled as to why you're seemingly unaware of the Nazi preoccupation with environmentalism and anthropology. It would be far from absurd to suggest that Reifenstahl's later concerns contained sinister echoes.

Boris, the Nazi interests and agenda were manifestly *not* what we now refer to as "environmentalism" and "anthropology". Lebensraum and a twisted and racist social Darwinianism could hardly be further removed from current views on environmentalism and anthropology, as well as from the activities and causes that Riefenstahl was championing in the last decades of her life. To attempt to draw such a connection is specious at best.

"Current views" on environmentalism and anthropology cover a pretty wide base, and not all of those views are divergent from those held by the Nazis. I see nothing in the later work and concerns of Reifenstahl that would make me feel entirely comfortable as to her motivations.

"'Current views' on environmentalism and anthropology cover a pretty wide base"

Granted.

"and not all of those views are divergent from those held by the Nazis."

None within the scope of legitimate scholarship. Certainly there are fringe kooks and extremists, but without any credibility or academic status.

"I see nothing in the later work and concerns of Reifenstahl that would make me feel entirely comfortable as to her motivations."

Well, you're certainly entitled to your own suspicions and reactions. I've never seen or heard any evidence to support your view, nor read any critiques that share it. But I can't persuade you toward a differing perspective, because (as the old saw has it) it's difficult to prove a negative.

Interesting discussion, to be sure. Thanks for raising the issues that you did.

Best wishes, David

David, as I believe in freedom of expression, I see no reason to hold a narrow view of what constitutes "legitimate scholarship". As a related example, I'm uncomfortable with the hounding of David Irving - I think it makes no sense to engage him emotionally rather than rationally.

As to the fact that you've never read any critiques that share my reservations regarding Riefenstahl's later work, I'm surprised. There's been no shortage of critical debate regarding the Nuba images.

"as I believe in freedom of expression, I see no reason to hold a narrow view of what constitutes 'legitimate scholarship'".

On this you are in agreement (ironically) with Hitler, who felt free to populate German university faculties with "scholars" whose ideas would have had no chance to find legitimacy in the rigorous mainstream of academia.

Importantly, professional standards in the sciences and humanities recognize that freedom of expression must operate also within a process of scholarly review, so that unsubstantiated and specious ideas can be differentiated from ideas based on evidence. That's why there are, for example, refereed journals in most professional fields.

"As a related example, I'm uncomfortable with the hounding of David Irving - I think it makes no sense to engage him emotionally rather than rationally."

I agree with you on this. Emotional hounding is no substitute for rational evaluation. Interestingly, in his recent two-volume Hitler biography (which I am just finishing), Ian Kershaw cites Irving on a number of points, and does so with fairness and objectivity.

"There's been no shortage of critical debate regarding the Nuba images."

Yes, of course there are many critiques of Riefenstahl's work (as there should always be for art), but I am unfamiliar with any that mirror your peculiar concern that the Nuba images somehow were part of Riefenstahl's intended mission to further a sinister Nazi agenda. Could you point me to some references that articulate that specific viewpoint?

Boris,

as far as I know, Hitler and the typical Nazi pack never like black people very much... if you foist Leni to be a Nazi during her late years you have to explain her concern in "black Untermenschen" (as in the Nazi terminology) expressis verbis...

And I'm a bit more tense how you bring socialdarwnism which leads to Auschwitz together with anthroplogical science, which is at least in the last 100 years based on respectfull observing of the subject populations. And environmental engagement has nothing to do with "Mehr Lebensraum". Please speak more clearly: If you take this honest, its more than ridiculous - it's infame against a big number of people engaged in this matter...

BTW, even in Leni's "Triumph des Willens" there is no asking to kill or abuse jews, chase away people off their home etc.. there was a hope for freedom and peace.

Leni R. was asked about her motives, and I found no argument against it. As for the Nuba: she liked to photograph their beauty and strength, their unaltered nature (=of course, afinity to her work with Olympic athletes, and -Greek/Roman- "classic" beautyness). The environmentalistic engagement refers to her aquanautic career. As most people know increasing water pollution leads coral reefs to die all over the world and in some idealistic manner she wanted to do something against it.

Thanks, <Frank

Leni Riefenstahl

Just a young(so called) talented artist doing a bit of propaganda for the government of the day.

Hey, what a career she could have had if they had stayed in power. Alas it was not to be.

I just don't understand why her name gives me a funny taste in my mouth.

Silly really, i suppose. Sorry.

David: ".......you are in agreement......with Hitler........"

Thanks for this considered response. If you want to drag things into the gutter I'll cheerfully slither down and join you.

".......your peculiar concern that the Nuba images somehow were part of Riefenstahl's intended mission to further a sinister Nazi agenda. Could you point me to some references.........."

I think you're being disingenuous. On the one hand you're passing yourself off as a scholar of modern German history, on the other you're telling me that you've never come across any questioning references to Riefenstahl's Nuba work - it just doesn't add up. You never came across the Sontag reference to the Nuba work being the final part of Riefenstahl's "triptych of fascist visuals" (part one being her appearances in Franck's "mountain films", I'll let you guess part two)? You'd struggle to find a single obituary that didn't quote this. I disagree with a great deal of Sontag's output, but on this I believe she's right on the mark.

I've just glanced at your history of posting here. Other than this thread, every single one of your contributions is gear related. Why is defending the honour of Leni so important to you?

Frank: ".......Hitler......never like black people....."

Thank you for your remarkable insight.

".......I'm a bit more tense how you bring socialdarwnism........"

I never did. Pay more attention.

"Please speak more clearly: If you take this honest, its more than ridiculous - it's infame......."

I will if you will.

"........there is no asking to kill or abuse jews....."

How terribly moderate.

"increasing water pollution leads coral reefs to die........in some idealistic manner she wanted to do something against it."

I agee, the woman was a saint and an ecovisionary.

"Thanks for this considered response. If you want to drag things into the gutter I'll cheerfully slither down and join you."

Well, I'm afraid you'll have to slither alone, Boris. Civility, good humor, and rational discourse is much my preference. :-)

By the way, you chose not to respond to the substantive point I was making (and yes it was considered) regarding freedom of expression in the context of academic legitimacy, an important area in which Hitler, as I assume you know, was a very destructive force. I meant nothing personal about you; sorry if the parallel I drew with your earlier point made you defensive. Again, nothing personal was intended.

"I think you're being disingenuous."

Well, that is a bit unkind, I must say. My only defense is to assure you that I have no need to feign ignorance, for I never seem to lack in that attribute!

"On the one hand you're passing yourself off as a scholar of modern German history"

Hardly! All I said was that I like to believe that I have considerably more than a "cursory" (your word) understanding of German history. A long way from qualifying as a scholar. History is not my professional field, though it is a personal interest of long standing.

"You never came across the Sontag reference to the Nuba work being the final part of Riefenstahl's 'triptych of fascist visuals'...?...I disagree with a great deal of Sontag's output, but on this I believe she's right on the mark."

You're refering to the review of the Nuba work which Sontag wrote in 1975, more than a quarter century ago?

Here's a brief evaluation of that review's lingering impact on Riefenstahl's reputation: http://www.dasblauelicht.net/new_page_42.htm

Actually, I may be somewhat the opposite of you, in that I generally appreciate and agree with Susan Sontag, but on this I think she may have missed the mark badly. I guess, given our opposing takes on Riefenstahl, it is no surprise that you and I would assess that review differently. Thanks for reminding me of it, because (as you know) it certainly was an influential critique of Riefenstahl at the time, and it helps me to understand somewhat better how you've come to your opinions.

"Why is defending the honour of Leni so important to you?"

Points of controversy often draw my interest. The Riefenstahl matter is particularly interesting, I suppose, because it's such an iconic illustration of the collision of political and artistic values. Don't know if you're in the U.S., but in this election year there are inevitably echoes of that collision that seep in around the edges of campaign rhetoric, usually couched in terms like "social values" and the implied admonition that artists conform to some group's definition of "correct" values. Perhaps that climate makes me more sensitive than usual to attacks on art based on the presumed political agendas of artists. On the other hand, maybe it's just that I like the Riefenstahl photos, and choose to evaluate her motives psychologically rather than politically.

One might also inquire of you why imputing sinister motives to Riefenstahl's photography is so important? Of course you have every right to your views, just as I have the right to remain unconvinced. As I said earlier, it *is* an interesting discussion, and I thank you for raising the points that you have.

David: ".......you chose not to respond to the substantive point.....regarding freedom of expression in the context of academic legitimacy......"

I didn't (and don't) believe your point was substantive, it seemed to merely serve the purpose of your "ironic" highlighting of me being in "agreement with Hitler".

"Thanks for reminding me of it..........it certainly was an influential critique........it helps me to understand somewhat better how you've come to your opinions."

I still feel that you're being disingenuous. Judging by your obvious interest in Riefenstahl it seems inconceivable that Sontag's, and others, comments had merely slipped your mind. Just by googling the words "riefenstahl" and "nuba" you'll get a staggering number of hits, many of which relate to questioning her motivations. Additionally, I have no idea how the Sontag reference helps you to "understand better" how I came to my own conclusions.

".........maybe it's just that I like the Riefenstahl photos, and choose to evaluate her motives psychologically rather than politically."

I'm not sure how you can separate the psychological from the political.

"One might also inquire of you why imputing sinister motives to Riefenstahl's photography is so important?"

At a time when a great deal of effort seems to be being made to rehabilitate the reputation of Reifenstahl I feel it's important to provide a reasoned counterbalance. If you were to ask me the straightforward question: Do you think Leni Riefenstahl was a lifelong Nazi? My response would be: I have no idea, though there certainly seems to be a fair amount of evidence to suggest that that may well have been the case. However, I believe it's just as likely that she was nothing more than an amoral chancer, who would have had no qualms about serving any powerful figure or regime willing to grant her favors.

Boris, if you think cynism a last argument in political discussion, you are wrong.

Sorry, who the hell is Susan Sontag? Has she made films, photos, art, any subjects to that matter? All I know is she is a talented writer who critizises people. As I said early in this thread, oppinion is cheap nowadays.. Probably she knows a lot about politics and nothing about art, as she disorganized these two..

Yes of course I saw her famous article cited everywhere, remember the discussion back in the 80's, yet hadn't the pleasure to find it in copy. Hopefully at least all of her believers have read it. She must be a kind of goddess for them. It's nice for them have structured the world so simple. Please tell me, what is an article compared to a life work of an artist?

A last word: Sontag and you, Boris, always try to look into someones brain to find out the motives and evaluate them.. if not fine with them, call it "Nazi". This is not the way in a country free of oppinion. You cannot look into brains, even if you are psychologists. people don't like that, it's uncourtly. Secondly it's arrogant to judge on a basis of own values, and that makes people angry. They don't are angry because of your oppinion, or you are right and they are wrong. They get angry about this kind of judging arrogance. Other people may have other values, their own, so learn to be more respectfull...

You think you have reached some point when you prove, or at least "have a fair amount of evidence(?)" someone is a Nazi. Nope. Did you ever had had the plearure to meet a "Nazi" who also thinks Hitler was a criminal? There were differences in the Nazi movement as well as in thinking,in fact some were near to the Communists..

At last, there is - at least for artists - no conviction for oppinion. What you do is near to witch hunting.. Remember the Catholic inquisition did its judgement in the same way, plus had the power to burn human beeings...

If a person insults another into the face, slat, or kill him, then you can condemn this person with pleasure. If he looks like a Nazi-slatter you can condemn him harder, if you have evidence he will again hurt people, because society cannot tolerate a behavior harming defenceless people for political reasons. You can condemn people giving money to that pack. Condemn them harder instead nuzzleling into brains. If you try to condemn persons for their ideas you lost freedom completely. This of course has to apply for people like Riefenstahl as well.

Thats why I got in there, not beause I like her motivation, ambition, or opportunism... I don't like it, as I stated early in this thread. But I like her because she was a strong women, and most for her beautiful pictures and films... yes there is a good place to bring pictures of defaulted humans of the Sudan, of hungry people, killed people, and so on: in the newspaper. Leni's pictures doesn't show this kind of things because she didn't like to picture it, right. But they show something equally, perhaps even more important at least for themself: These people are not miserable only.. but have PRIDE, ATTITUDE, and BEAUTY :-)

Frank: ".........who the hell is Susan Sontag?.........She must be a kind of goddess........"

Well, Sontag isn't a goddess to me. I have to say though Frank, I'm getting the impression that the beautiful Leni is something of a goddess to you.......

Frank: ".......if not fine with them, call it a "Nazi"."

At no stage have I called Riefenstahl a Nazi. I clearly stated that I didn't know whether she was a Nazi.

"This is not the way in a country of free opinion."

I've also stated my belief in freedom of expression.

"........learn to be more respectfull........"

Of you? Of Leni? If you continue to misrepresent my comments you're unlikely to win my respect.

"If you try to condemn persons for their ideas you lost freedom completely."

You have a very strange concept of freedom.

"You have a very strange concept of freedom."

Again, Boris, this is unpolite. Please notice that people different from you have diferent values. Either you want to debate our "concepts of Freedom" (maybe it differs...) then at least you have not to say its strange... ;-) Instead of that, you can say "This and this sounds strange to me, because of..." This needs some more work but at least show some respect to that human you make an attempt to discuss with :-)

"I'm getting the impression that the beautiful Leni is something of a goddess to you......."

Boris, friend, you are responsible for your impressions, not me. Other people have read what I don't like on her, why not you?? Please be so kind provide me with Susan Sontags article fmechelh at web dot de, then we can discuss her critic of R. in detail. But what will influence this discussion is my attitude to esteem productive (i.e. artistic) work more than intellectual banter (note I'm not saying jerking here ;-)and critizism about it.

Frank, if you don't understand the concept of freedom of speech then it's unlikely that I can help you with that. Regarding your request for me to provide you with "Sontag's article", well, I think you're probably a big enough boy to track that down yourself.

Boris, please explain what "freedom of speech" has to do with your judging others oppinion as strange, "has not understand", "you're being disingenuous", "good evidence to be a Nazi" and so on. Whoever continues such unpolite words may have "free speech" indeed but will soon stand alone to discuss something...

As far as S.Sontag is concerned (BTW I read she is also not very polite a person ;-) her findings about Riefenstahl have not been proved true in general debate, so one must not know it like a bible, and it can pass as far as I'm concerned.

But please inform me if she had maked enjoyable movie or photos.. Neither my or your values should be issues on this discussion but art, and unfortunately we miss from your side some substance what (political-correct, non-fascistic ;-) art should be. I.e. is it allowed in your worthy oppionion to display muscular athletes, beautiful or naked bodies, pride..? is it fascistic? Or only if people like R. show it?

;-)

"Sorry, who the hell is Susan Sontag? Has she made films, photos, art, any subjects to that matter? All I know is she is a talented writer who critizises people. As I said early in this thread, oppinion is cheap nowadays.. Probably she knows a lot about politics and nothing about art, as she disorganized these two..

Yes of course I saw her famous article cited everywhere, remember the discussion back in the 80's, yet hadn't the pleasure to find it in copy. Hopefully at least all of her believers have read it. She must be a kind of goddess for them. It's nice for them have structured the world so simple. Please tell me, what is an article compared to a life work of an artist?"

Frank - Sontag is one of the most intelligent and acute critics of contemporary culture on the scene. Her work should be required reading for anyone interested in photography, representation and media in the widest sense. Apparently she has also made at least one film, but her arguments deserve discussion on their merits alone.

Frank: ".......is it allowed in your worthy oppinion to display muscular athletes, beautiful or naked bodies, pride..?"

Yes, of course. How many times do I have to state that I believe in freedom of expression? My earlier reference to Irving was intended to make crystal clear that I'm not a big fan of censorship.

"........is it fascistic?"

It can be.

"Or only if people like R show it?"

Let the people decide.......

Bob, seldom have I been so happy to hear a relatively sane voice. You don't know of any other Bob's who'd like to join in do you?

"At a time when a great deal of effort seems to be being made to rehabilitate the reputation of Reifenstahl I feel it's important to provide a reasoned counterbalance."

Fair enough, and thanks for clarifying your intent. My take is that the need for "counterbalance" continues to be in the opposite direction, as efforts to villify Riefenstahl and discredit her work have been vigorous and ongoing for more than half a century.

By the way, if you haven't read it, this essay assesses condemnations of Riefenstahl, and argues that her detractors (Sontag included) fail to appreciate the anti-feminist dynamics at work both in the circumstances of Riefenstahl's seduction by Nazi ideology and in the failure of her later critics to grant her the same presumption of change as that accorded to many male artists of the Nazi time. It's good reading:

http://www.powernet.net/%7Ehflippo/cinema/tiefland.html

Bob, imagine, even in Germany we heard of Susan Sontag (must have forgotten the ironic tags)... and in some (if not most) issues, I'm close to her... but in this matter she overshot helpless. this was quite clear 25 years ago, and even more clear today, when you have 25% fascists if you take her arguments against the sport, body and wellness cult honest.. mens sana in corpore sane (not sure what it is in english): this Roman wisdom sounds a lot more dingy 25 years ago than today... at least it's not enough to say her name as a last argument.

Boris "Let the people decide......." Not bad an approach. Leni made good money with her Nuba books, Susan with hers...So why the discussion about hidden nazism which Sontag has started?

The true question to art is, you like it or not? Beauty, Art, or not?

It doesn't help you much in that decision to ask an artist what was his intention. Or if you do, you have to take his answers honest, and in good-will. In this matter Sontag failed. Her intension was to execute Riefenstahl in public. If you mistrust someones honesty in public you are in to bring the proof. She failed.

One final comment (I'll not have access to the internet for the next week or so) - Riefenstahl obviously had ability as a filmmaker, although what she produced looks a great deal closer to advertising than art. However, her later work as a photographer is utterly without distinction. If you took away the whiff of fascist glamor that surrounded her, the Nuba pictures would have sunk without trace.

ps Frank, before you chip in with another dodgy elegy regarding the grace and beauty that Riefenstahl captured, and what a loss it would be if we hadn't seen the loveley Leni's images, the world would still have the George Rodger pictures.

What happened was awful, no matter who did it. And what's more awful is that it continues to happen in many parts of the world. We've learned nothing from history, except to make more effective tools of destruction and death. I'm still waiting for civilization to reach our planet.

Sitting at the airport, reading again through this thread. I click on the original poster's name, look at his profile, go to the homepage of his website. The first thing I read: "Karim D. Ghantous......AKA Parakommando"...............

"The true question to art is, you like it or not? Beauty, Art, or not?"

I think this is a pretty reductive view of art.

One of the functions of criticism is to reveal the underlying ideology of an artist (which by definition he/she is likely to be unaware of) and how and to what extent that is evident in their work. It's not a matter of public execution, but elucidation.

"One of the functions of criticism is to reveal the underlying ideology of an artist "

One has to differ guesswork and facts. I doubt if one can success doing that kind of suggestions if you only know, or even want to know, a part of the strory, or that it has any value for the artist itself, for you, or other artists.

Thats where we disagree. If one don't like Leni's (or any other artists) pictures or films, findit chintzy or other, no further reason is needed.

I wonder, Lena. I wonder.

After a hard day photographing those sweaty male athletics, then partying with the great and good.......

Did you notice that little boy lying in the road, the one with blood seeping from a bullet hole in his head. Did you notice him? I wonder.

He was only 9 years old; he was trying to defend his mother and sister with his fists from abuse.

Did you notice Lena? You being a documentary photographer.

Of course Lena, your publist knows how to turn a coin. Your family are more than happy to suck up the proceeds.

All publicity, is good publicity....isn't it. Shame about the little boys...never mind, things happen.

Allen Herbert: "Did you notice that little boy lying in the road, the one with blood seeping from a bullet hole in his head. Did you notice him? I wonder."

This observation could be from any year in the last 100+ years. Bosnia, Rwanda, the Dani, East Timor, Congo, South Africa, Rhodesia, etc. And today? Sudan, among others. It's not limited to Western Europe, but then who cares, because those people don't really count in the grand scheme.

These people *may* count if (in case of the Sudan) enough European and American people have known about the Nuba-tribe. If you know nothing about them, you don't care about their fate... this together with actual reporting of the miserables of civil war (which must not document the same photographer) *may* help... you cannot blame the reporter if not.. and worst case at least you have it's documented to blame who refuses to help...

Karim, why not come back to this thread and give a response to the points raised? As sinister echoes have been a theme of the thread maybe you could clarify why you also go by the name of Parakommando........

People can go on recrucifying Ms. Riefenstahl till kingdom come, but the question still stands: "What has mankind learned from all this?"

If you look at present day Israel, the country that should have learned the most from this, you see a stratification of society that is very ugly. The Askenazy (hailing from Europe) Jews consider themselves to be the "Master Race" amongst Jews, and look down upon the Sephardic (from North Africa), and they both look down on the Falasha (African Jew). Power is in the hands of the Ashkenazy, and they are scared that the Sephardic, who reproduce at a higher rate, will take over. Also, recent Russian immigrants have returned to Russia, and prefer being there to the indignities they face in Israel.

No one is exempt from this sort of thinking. This sort of nonsense takes place in every society on the planet, so to keep on villifying the Nazis serves no purpose, unless we have learned from the lessons of history. In my own country of origin people can get away with murder, if they kill the lower class people.

Look at yourself. What are you doing to make the world a better place for people who don't look like you?

Vic, I'd settle for just the one crucifixion of the lovely Leni. Rather than defending the reputation of Riefenstahl shouldn't you be spending your time more constructively beating beggars to death? Or have you grown out of that?

Boris, here's the first one. Enjoy. Then contemplate the hypocrisy that still rules the world.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005x76

Boris, here's another:

The editorial in the Wall Street Journal claims that the Chinese have killed (or aborted) 300,000,000 female infants (or foetuses) during the one-child-per-family policy. China now has 6 young men for every 5 young women. 300 million dead girls. Does anyone care? We're too busy discussing the merits of Leni, as if it makes a hill of difference.

"Does anyone care?" Yes Vic, I think people do care, including those of us who, from time to time, show hypocrisy. I'm really not understanding what point you're trying to make.

Lovely Leni claimed she was a documentry photographer.

there's the stain.

A stain on those who call themselves photographers.

..curious, why are the film, photograph and art students studying her pictures, masters like Helmut Newton (who as a jew escaped from the Nazi) never speaking about "stain"?

Leni does her best to inform people in rich Europe and America about the Nuba tribe in Sudan. Maybe she wasn't a newspaper photographer... But some people may have seen her pictures will engage against civil war in Sudan. Just curious, what did YOU do for the Sudan people which qualifies your so-harsh ethical rating of this dead person???

Frank, you need to get out there and engage with some of those students who are studying the life and work of Riefenstahl. They certainly haven't all come to the conclusion that she was simply a misunderstood environmentalist and philanthropist as you seem to imagine.

Questioning what Allan, or anybody else, has done for the Sudanese people is an utter irrelevancy to the debate regarding the motivations of Riefenstahl. I have a question for you though: Why, like David Fink, is this the only non-gear related thread you've ever shown an interest in? I'll be honest, I find your contribution here really disturbing. Am I saying I think you are a supporter of Riefenstahl because of Nazi sympathies? No, just as with Riefenstahl I haven't met you in person, so I don't know. But your demeanour while discussing a key Nazi propagandist, and your insistence on "courtliness", certainly gives me pause for thought and an overwhelming feeling of being soiled by your presence.

Boris, when you feel "soiled" from a virtual presence of a person here who disagrees to you but gave you no cause for argue, I feel very sorry for you but cannot help. Bad feelings are present for a certain reason, and you should do something to find it. My way is to argument by facts, not to exchange feelings or emotions good or bad, because when discuss facts this is no help, but only leads to more argue. I wonder why you challenge my motives to go in that discussion. Different from you, I declared it in an earlier statemnt. Every person who is able to read can find it. Anyway, as a person who likes freedom of expression like you, I feel free to discuss what topics *I* like. If you feel my considerations worthless, you are free to express this, and I am free to doubt you have fully read or understand it. So what?

Boris, for studying film you need to see and *then* discuss it. discussing the author first is wrong the way. If my contributions are annoying you, maybe Patric Dahlén's in the last thread will be more helpful to understand how to subject film.

"I'm really not understanding what point you're trying to make."

It is sad to see that 6,000,000 Jews died in vain. The world is still a moral and ethical cesspool in many regions.

Cold Facts.

How many did Leni inspire to join the friends of humanity...thousands, or millions?

Leni was a Artist above such things. So were the Scientists doing pleasant things with helpful folk.

Of course Leni being a photographer would not notice any unpleasent things..would she?

Some folk with deep pockets are never happy. They just want to keep filling them.

What the hell as humanity got to do with it.

Frank: "My way is to argument by facts........."

Sadly, despite your claim, throughout our dialogue you have misrepresented my statements, and, seemingly, feigned ignorance of the possible implications of the imagery produced by Riefenstahl in her later work. I welcome debate, but I see no reason to hide my revulsion towards those who seek to sanctify a woman who was a key Nazi propagandist, a personal friend, and an admirer of Hitler. I'll ask the question again: Why is this the only non-gear related thread you've contributed to? Many photographers have been criticized in these forums, but you've never felt the need to defend their honour. What makes Riefenstahl so worthy of your defense?

Vic, because the world is "still a cesspool" we shouldn't discuss the past? Your point still evades me.

Boris, reading my earlier statements will clear my motives litarally. What else do you want to know of my person? What will you do with this information? I will not repeat, because my person is not subject of this discussion, OK?

"OK?"

If you don't want to clarify why the defense of Riefenstahl means so much to you, then, yes, it will have to be OK. However, I don't believe that it's inappropriate of me to be curious as to why the two primary supporters of Riefenstahl in this thread have shown no interest in any other thread pertaining to photographers rather than equipment. I also believe that it's not inappropriate to be curious as to why the person who ignited the thread, and then simply stood aside during the debate, apparently also goes by the name "Parakommando"?

Well, I think we all know what Boris and Frank think about this by now.

I'm sorry if you're finding this tedious Bob.

"...to clarify why the defense of Riefenstahl means so much to you" I have seen, and like very much some of her films, like "Piz Palü" "Das blaue Licht" and some of her photos. As I stated earlier I have seen all her films to judge from own experience, after reading critical articles about her person in German magazines like the SPIEGEL for more than 15 years... plus seeing countless TV-documentaries about her work and interviews. As a person far away of sympathy for *any* blimpish politics I have seen *nothing* which leads me to the decision she was a Nazi. Although even as a photographer she was blind on political eyes (like million other in the 30's) and of course was not "innocent"... but also not a criminal.

I doubt if Susan Sontag has spend so much time with the subject before issueing her article. Making oppinion from 2nd-hand without knowing the subject is never the best choice... you mentioned only Susan Sontags aticle as argument so I guess you dont know nothing more on that subject. If you ever had seen "Olympia" which was judged after the war in the USA as "one of the 10 best films ever made", show me the rassistic scenes. If not, end of debate.

The story goes that Hitler asks to cut-off the portraits and scenes with black American athlet Jesse Owens and Leni refused. You may believe this story or (probably) not - its without any relevance.. You can see the film, and Jesse Owens is in. Period.

I will go in for *any* other artist I like when I read stupid things about from ignorant and hypocrisy people, as long as I have time for.

I know: artist, successfull film maker, photograph AND strong independent woman is too much for certain people (men).

"...two primary supporters of Riefenstahl in this thread"

Probably you forget some other people here. The only reason why I'm still involved in this thread is you keep the challange.

"why the person who ignited the thread, and then simply stood aside during the debate, apparently also goes by the name "Parakommando"?

Maybe he is dread by Susan Sontag or you , I don't care. Ask him

Sorry, could it be that you see Nazis all around, Riefenstahl, me, the author of this thread? Where do you live? courtesy of a person like me makes you throw up?? Man, I pray you'll never meet a Nazi in person to learn about Nazi politeness.

Frank: ".......I have seen all her films......critical articles about her......for more than 15 years......countless TV-documentaries......and interviews........I doubt if Susan Sontag has spend so much time........."

I'm more than prepared to accept that Sontag, myself, and probably most others have spent nowhere near the amount of time that you have studying Riefenstahl.

".......you mentioned only........Sontag.......as argument so I guess you don't know anything more......."

I mentioned Sontag only in response to the suggestion that I was unique in seeing anything remotely dubious about the life and work of Riefenstahl. There's a great deal of critical analysis other than Sontag's out there.

""Olympia".......show the rassistic scenes. If not, end of debate."

The debate is about a life's work and motivations, not a single film.

"I will go in for *any* other artist.......when I read stupid things......from ignorant and hypocrisy people......."

Well that wasn't very "courtly". Do you believe that everyone who has reservations about Riefenstahl is ignorant and hypocritical? Or just me?

"I know........strong independent woman is too much for certain people (men)."

So the primary motivation for being wary of Riefenstahl is misogyny? Where does that leave Sontag? If you want to champion the cause of strong, talented women in general, let me suggest one of Riefenstahl's contemporaries, Lee Miller (www.leemiller.co.uk). Miller produced work of the highest standard (I particularly recommend that you check out her photographs of the liberation of the Buchenwald and Dachau concentration camps) but, until recently, was dismissed as little more than an adornment to the men (such as Man Ray) in her life.

".......could it be that you see Nazis all around........"

It could be, but I don't think so. I'm certainly not comfortable with the current climate in which any critic of Israel is likely to be accused of anti-semitism. However, I also think it's naive of people to believe that the beliefs espoused by the Nazis have simply evaporated.

"Where do you live?"

Asia

"Man, I pray you'll never meet a Nazi in person to learn about Nazi politeness."

If it's OK with you, I'll cheerfully go without your prayers.

"I particularly recommend that you check out her photographs of the liberation of the Buchenwald and Dachau concentration camps"

Boris, I've spending at least 20x the time reading about the Hitler regime in the last 20-25 years, prior to Riefenstahls films and not need your assistence. Last time someone instilled me so pushy like you about "right" books or films was a left-extreme agitator at college times back in the early 80's. I'm through. Witch hunting and attitude snoopery gone deeply "out" since then.. I'm happy that people assuming others need assistance in thinking are not in charge today, at least in Europe... The link you posted about Lee Miller... really nice photos.. but sorry not at relevance here..

".......I've spending at least 20x reading about the Hitler regime in the last 20-25 years......."

I believe you.

"........I'm happy that people assuming others need assistance in thinking are not in charge today......in Europe........"

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what debate is about. For the last time, I believe in total freedom of expression. You have the right to celebrate the life and work of Riefenstahl, and I have the right to express revulsion at that same life and work. If someone tried to physically stop you praising Riefenstahl, then I'd do everything in my power to defend your right of expression. I had hoped that my earlier reference to David Irving would have made my attitude clear.

"Lee Miller......nice photos.. but sorry not at relevance........"

Miller is relevant as a direct contemporary of Riefenstahl. She is also relevant as a talented woman whose reputation has suffered as a result of misogyny - something you erroneously implied may be behind my attitude to Riefenstahl.