Did you know Leitz was sold to the Leica Firm?

Ok, but the rest sound very truthfull and fair.

"The things people will do to sell an item..."

Francisco, this seller isn't doing anything wrong. Yes, we knew that the first M6's were from Leitz. I don't think they are better in any way than the later post-Leitz M6 classic, but it will be as good. It might be nice to own one just for sentimental reasons, if one is looking for an M6 classic. The BIN price is a little high, but $1150 or so--even $1200--would be allright.

I don't think the seller is hyping the camera for being Leitz-made; I think he's just identifying it for what it is. I have enough M6's, but if I didn't, I might like to have this one.

In some ways it is correct. Originally E. Leitz, Wetzlar was a family owned enterprise. Eventually it went public and became GMBH (Gesselshchaft mit Beshrankter Hafftung). Finally the whole corporation became part of The Schmidtheiny combine (Wild instruments of Switzerland). Ultimately the camera and sporting optics divisions were split off and sold to a group from management and other investors. There is a detailed history of Leica history in Dennis Laney's "Leica Collectors Guide".

Francisco,

All statements look OK to me. We must remember that some possible bidders may not know of the Leitz to Leica corporate changes.

I really don'r know if a Leitz marked M6 is worth more or less than an equal condition Leica marked M6. Can any one tell me?

Jerry

I have had collectors tell me that from their viewpoint the M6's made in Wetzlar and which have the 'Leitz' meatball have a slightly higher premium over later models. This probably has little or nothing to do with their mechanical reliability but for some owners affords additional bragging rights.

You should see the premium paid for a "pre CBS" Fender guitar. Or for an M3.

Is this the same item featured in the FS posts - vendor Lacey Smith? You saw it here first . . .

Well, I simply found it a bit silly to offer a camera as "Leitz" like it's somehow better. Now, if I know it, every body here knows the same thing: Leitz was a lens maker and used Barnack's camera design under the name Leica (for Leitz and Camera). Hence, Leica isn't really an institution but a made-up name. The initial M6 bodies carried the firm's name on a red logo. The fact that Leitz went public and changed names doesn't mean there was a change of hands... necessarily.

In any event, I do know the camera description isn't wrong. It's just that the hype to promote it is kind of funny... Like offering a Ford vehicle from before Ford Motor became Ford Motor Inc. or something like that.

Otherwise, the camera looks very sellable.

Now, if I'm wrong, I'll learn about it sometime soon.

Leica cameras were made under three corporate structures: 1) Leitz (the Leitz family, the company found by Ernst Leitz), 2) Wild-Leitz ownership; and 3) Leica (Leica GMBH). The first two produced cameras with the Leitz label or the Leitz roundel (red dot), which was subsequently changed to Leica.

M6s with the Leitz roundel may be worth a little (but not much) more than those with the Leica roundel. Mostly for sentimental reasons. As far as quality, remember that Leica has continually improved the M6 over its tenure, including improved operation of the metering system and improved low light sensitivity, so the later M6s and TTLs are actually a little better than the earlier ones (just like the M6, which had a number of imporvements during its manufacture period). You can read on Stephen Gandy's Cameraquest website about some of these changes.

You should also be aware that if something happened to the roundel (which needs to be removed to get to the meter circuitry), it would be replaced with a Leica roundel (the Leitz ones being long gone), so I have seen a number of very early cameras with Leica (not Leitz) red dots, undoubtedly having been replaced at service.

As far as the auction, it's no biggy, some people do like the camera that says Leitz rather than Leica. It brings back memories of the glory days, when cameras and lenses were made by skilled craftsmen who took pride in their work. Plase don't bash me, but I still have a fondness for the label "Leitz Wetzlar" (or Leitz Midland Canada for you Canadians).

For whatever it is worth, I imparted no particular value to this as a cosmetic item, but thought some might. Comsetically, it is a "design" feature, of value or not. Sort of like a "red dial" screw mount III -- some specific signficance to cogizscenti (? sp.), but not a huge one.

But, like the "red dial" designation, it also represent an engineering vintage -- time-wise, this vintage is slightly different from its successors - the meter system was occasionally funky, but the construct (Weitzler) was probably more akin to an M4-P than a last version M6-TTL, or certainly an MP. The German Leica repair guy who used to come around on Leica Days opined every year that he remembered this body, and it was a "good one".

Each M6 is really a bit different -- a different shutter release feel, a different shutter sound, and different pattern of adherence to shutter speed listings. Not much, but each has a personality. I had this one (early) and an M6-0.85, and I could definitely tell the difference with eyes shut. Some prefer the older, some the newer. I certainly could wish this one had an MP viewfinder, but it does not; otherwise it was great.

So, I hope no harm taken.

Of course, some would raise the old (but only sometimes true) argument that a family owned company has more pride and risk than a corporation, though I do think Leica maintained a very high road. The sale to Hermes probably had more effect than the 80's family sale.

By the way, some do say the Ford line did go down after the Ford family ceased to control it. That would be for others to argue, but Oil companies, drug companies, and auto manufacturers do lose some soul when the original wildcatters, scientists, and production line engineers are replaced by a strict M.B.A. Board who could just as well sell cosmetic widgets. They may, or may not, be better businesses, the product may, or may not, be better, but they are not the same.

I have a great fondness for this particular body, and part with it with some regret (of course).

[You should also be aware that if something happened to the roundel (which needs to be removed to get to the meter circuitry)]

How delicious! Eliott the resident Leica expert has no inkling at all how the M6 is put together! It is the vertical calibration of the rangefinder that can be accessed by removing the red circle. The meter circuitry requires removal of the entire top cover for some components, and for rest, the inner body must be removed from the outer casting. Had a bit of a chat with a Mr. Malcom Taylor a while back.

"In some ways it is correct. Originally E. Leitz, Wetzlar was a family owned enterprise. Eventually it went public and became GMBH (Gesselshchaft mit Beshrankter Hafftung)."

Not (necessarily) true. GmbH means somewhat similar to a Ltd. There are several shareholders and they are responsible up to the amount of their share, not with their whole fund. The shares of a GmbH usually are not tradeable without consent of other shareholders.

"Finally the whole corporation became part of The Schmidtheiny combine (Wild instruments of Switzerland)."

Actually, Wild was another company owned by Schmidtheiny.

"Ultimately the camera and sporting optics divisions were split off and sold to a group from management and other investors."

AFAIK this division was named "Leica AG".

How delicious! Eliott the resident Leica expert has no inkling at all how the M6 is put together!

How delightfully droll! Great of you to come down from your dwelling in stratos to set all of us equipment-obsessed troglodytes straight. But why bother? There is obviously nothing of value that someone like you can learn here.

WINFRIED: Please understand that my knowledge of German is derived from musico-literary usage rather than conversational experience, and has never fathomed the subtleties of GmbH and similar acronyms (DRGM ?). I was aware of its difference from the simple proprietorship which Leitz previously had been. The organizational convolutions of the Schmidheiny interests are impossible to describe as well as understand, and the arrangement by which Leica Camera, AG became a totally separate entity is equally difficult to fathom.