First rangefinder and lens

Consider a nikon film camera if you have lenses that cover film format ,24x36mm. They are cheap and you will get your feet wet.

Your budget does not buy much in the way of a decent rangefinder. Anything you buy at that price probabley will need $300 worth of repairs. With your inexperience, you will not be able to pick up one not needing repairs.

There are good Leica dealers in UK. Make a shopping trip, not a buying trip.

Thanks Ronald. Maybe I'll hold out for the moment then, until I'm ready to get something decent.

Just for an idea, could anybody tell me what the minimum would be to buy a decent rangefinder/lens combination, and what that would be? Cheers, Anatole

antoan, i think you can safely ignore the advice from above. if you want a rangefinder get one. 300 uk pounds would get a lot. consider the voightlander bessa range and the fabulas cosina glass. you would of course have to go second hand but for the money you have you will get some good stuff.

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now pick up some jupiter 50mm russian glass (russian clone) for a tenner from ebay. industar lenses also go dirt cheap. you would be well within your budget. when you have a little more to add to that, go for a 35mm 2.5 colour skopar lens.

do check fleabay as well. prices are not bad at present because of the economic climate

Anatole, check out www.ffordes.com, based in Scotland. Steve is good to deal with. Leica CL or Minolta CLE may be worth considering. M2 or M3 are excellent for all-manual cameras that will last a lifetime. They cost a bit more. Make sure whatever you buy is fully serviced. Other places to look are www.leicashop.at, www.photovillage.com, and www.sherrykrauter.com. Read all about classic cameras at www.cameraquest.com and www.photoethnogrpahy.com. That should give you plenty to think about!

I don`t follow exact pricing, but 600 for a camera with working parts plus cleaning and relube for $300 to a better one at 1200 to 1500 that may still end up need a relube.

A crummy lens for $200 to something nice at $600.

Go the camera Quest.com and price the current bodies and lenses. I think you can get something new for $700. They are not Leica quality, but you can try out a range finder.

Or get a 35 and 50 Nikon lens and a Nikon camera. You can use the lenses on your Nikon digi if you abandon film. The right Nikon lenses can be used on the digi with good optical results, but will not necessarily fully function.

The real problem with old Leicas is deterioration with time. Rubber shutter curtains go bad. Transports go bad, Rangefinders delaminate, Lubes harden. All fixable, but at great expense. They are a lot like classic cars. Fine if you have the money and know what you are getting.

Get a Pentax K1000. Not a rangefinder and also no bells & whistles but you'll learn alot of basics. Or one of the Japanese rangfinders from the 70's. I have a Minolta HiMatic 7s I still use alot. Check the auctions.

Nope, he doesn't need a Pentax. Check the first two posts.

Could consider a non-Leica rangefinder. You could get a fine ~1960 Canon P or similar with a 35/2 or 50/1.4 and stay well within your budget, although I know prices are higher in the U.K.

KEH in Georgia (no, not that Georgia) always has a few and they are up front about condition. If you shop on the much-loathed auction site, there's an outstanding guy named Jiri Ecer in Japan who trades as jiri_e or something like that. He specializes in Canon rangefinder, and he's completely obsessive about describing condition accurately.

"have suddenly had an urge to get a rangefinder ... would hope to find something with metering inside and luxuries like that ... My budget would be around £300 (approx. $600) for both one lens and a camera"

$600 will buy _alot_ of rangefinder.

First, look for Japanese fixed lens RF from the 70's. The one best fitting your requirement is probably the Olympus XA. This is a jewel of a little clamshell, modern design with a 35mm f2.8 lens. One in good condition should be about $80.

Second, look for the Contax G1 and G2. This is an (automatic focus, auto-wind, AE) RF manufactured in the mid 90's. It is non-traditionalist RF design to say the least. If for no other reasons though, get this camera for the Zeiss optics. The default lens shipped with the G1 was the 45mm f2 Zeiss Planar. In some circles, this hallowed lens is mentioned only in hush tones. A G1 and 45mm lens in good condition should be around $300.

Finally, if you're willing to forgo coupled metering (overrated anyways) then your options really open up.

The Cosina Voigtlander (CV) bodies and lenses are the best value.

Two options:

1) NEW Bessa 3A ($539 from Cameraquest) + an Old Russian lens (Less than $50 on ebay)

2) NEW Bessa T ($279 from CQ) + a NEW CV 35mm Skopar (under $300) OR a NEW 35mm Pancake ($319) PLUS turret finder for about $50 from ebay (The T does not have a finder)

I would personally go with Option 1, and if the RF bug sticks, then upgrade to a better lens. The R3A is a nice body (I have an R3A and R3M), with a 1:1 finder that allows you to shoot with body eyes open. The nice thing about the T is its long EBL, which enables it to focus very fast lenses -- although the separate finder means a slower shooting process.

Anatole, since you are a film newbie you may want to test the rangefinder waters a bit before investing too deeply. Try out a compact fixed lens rangefinder like a Canonet 17 GIII QL. They are inexpensive and very good quality. It should give you an idea if rangefinders are your cup of tea. I just picked up a nice Konica Auto S2, in mint condition for under $20! It shoots beautiful images. See my post here:

http://photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00QTnF

Best of Luck in your film adventures......................................Lou

Yeah, I agree, start out cheap. Lots of those inexpensive old RFs are good shooters.

Also, if you're just getting into film, I second the suggestion that you go with an all-manual SLR. That way, it's easier to get equipment that works.

Meanwhile, read up on using film cameras.

If you start out with a decent but inexpensive camera, then you have money left over for your developing tanks, chemicals, and an enlarger.

Play your cards right, and you could have lots of that GBP600 left over. Buy some film, some paper, some chemicals, and save up while you gain experience and learn the ropes.

Remember, it isn't the camera, it's the photographer who makes the picture.

If it has to be a rangefinder, I'll second the idea of getting a Voigtlander Bessa (possibly s/h) and lens. £300 ought to buy you a s/h Bessa R2 + 35mm combination - probably one the slower (f2.5) pancake lenses at that price. Yes, a Bessa is not a Leica but then again you're not paying Leica money either. Any Leica you buy for under £300 will probably require extensive (expensive) servicing. For a 'walk away and use it' s/h Leica in the UK you're probably looking at close to £800 for an M6TTL or fairly late M6 classic. Anything significantly earlier/cheaper and you'll probably need the servicing; if it's had a recent service, then that will be reflected in the purchase price.

The advantage of the Bessa is that it has a lot of the modern conveniences which would make the transition to RF use a bit easier. You can turn them off once you're comfortable!

Alternatively, there is the Nikon (film) SLR route. I'm guessing that your Nikon DSLR(s) are DX-format, in which case your lenses won't work properly on a 35mm camera. However, prices of Nikon 35mm bodies are low - my local dealer (Sheffield) had several F80 bodies for around £100, plus s/h lenses of various kinds. Indeed, if you're only paying £100 for the body you could buy a new lens: certainly a new 50mm f1.8, or perhaps a new 35mm f2 AF-D, and depending on your DSLR, either of these lenses might by fully functional on that. (Basically they won't auto-focus on a D40/D40x/D60, but will work perfectly on all other recent Nikon DSLRs.)

I'd say try out a Canonet, a Yashica GS, a Konica S... those are fixed-lens rangefinder cameras that, if in good shape, will let you experience what it is to use a rangefinder camera. Forget about using meterless cameras with interchangeable lenses... unless you really like the fixed-lens type.

"Just for an idea, could anybody tell me what the minimum would be to buy a decent rangefinder/lens combination, and what that would be? Cheers, Anatole"

I haven't read the above replies, so this may be old news: my recommendation for your budget and considering your unfamiliarity with film photography.

A Canon 7 and a 50mm lens. This is an interchangeable lens rangefinder that takes Leica Thread Mount (LTM) lenses made by Canon, Leica and others. This is the LTM camera that has all the mod cons for that mount (I think only the Cosina Bessa R may be more up-to-date). A nice 7 and lens should not be much more than 400$. Set aside another 100-150$ for a CLA. LTM lenses are relatively cheap, and if you should like rf cameras, eventually you will by a Leica M mount camera, and the LTM lenses can be used on them with an adapter.

I don't own one. I chose a Leica IIIf instead mainly because I wanted the smaller sized body with a collapsible lens and because the way I use it is not impacted much by some of the old fashioned designs (such as bottom loading, and separate finders). The Leica IIIf cost me 499$ with 50mm f3.5 Elmar collapsible. I spent 120$ on a CLA including shutter curtain replacement. I bought mine from KEH. You should check their website for current prices for the Canon 7.

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Good luck.

I'd second the advise to get a Canonet GIII 17. They really rock and take tack sharp photos. You can get one from a reputable dealer on ebay, guaranteed to work, and with lens (it's built in) for under $100 U.S. They are a great way to get your feet wet, and since they aren't nearly as expensive as Leicas or other interchangeable lens RFs you'll have lots of money to spend on film, or save up to get something else. I know some people who have a Leica collection which is worth more than my car, but they use the Canonet most of the time because they are scared of their expensive Leica's getting damaged or stolen!

<< ... have suddenly had an urge to get a rangefinder ... >>

Either you can:

1. Wait until this urge passes :-)

- or -

2. Consider one of the fixed lens rangefinders. Another one I like is the Konica Auto S2 -- larger than some others, but pretty well made and optically very good. Fixed 45mm f/1.8. Working ones are inexpensive.

If after experiencing the film rangefinder, you determine it's the thing for you, the fancier ones will still be around.

Hello Anatole,

Have a look at the Konica Hexar in any version. I have one (Silver) and like it a lot. It is like a Leica M7 with autofocus, silent. The lens was reported to be close to the Leica 35mm/f2 summicron. Look inside the equipment section there is a good review. I also have a M6 and i still use it from time to time. I like the fact that you can lock the focus.

Whoa...I went out for the day, and came back to find a huge list of answers! Thanks all for your help, I really appreciate it - I guess I'll have a few days worth of trawling through the vast amounts of information given. Is there anything in particular I should know about rangefinders, coming from a DSLR background, e.g. looking after them, etc.? Thank you all very much for your help. Anatole

Also, I plan to have a look around when I next go to Hong Kong, as I know of a few good camera shops there that sell second hand stuff. I'll keep a look out for the above names, but could anybody tell me what sort of things I should look out for when inspecting a second-hand rangefinder (e.g. shutter, other mechanisms)? Cheers, Anatole

go second hand with a Bessa R and a Cosina Voigtlander Classic 35 mm 2.5 lens

"but could anybody tell me what sort of things I should look out for when inspecting a second-hand rangefinder (e.g. shutter, other mechanisms)?"

The simplest thing is to carry a roll of slide film with you and run it through the camera at all shutter speeds and apertures. Focus shots at its closest focus and at infinity and a few points inbetween and develop at a 1 hour. If there's no 1 hour that'll do slide film, take a roll of color negative film as all 1 hours will develop those. If the prints look ok, it may be worth buying. The lens should be examined with a bright pinpoint light to look for haze or fungus, but cleaning marks on the front element are common on older lenses and are not necessarily enough to pass on the lens. Marks on the rear element are not a good thing, though.

Get an Olympus SP (excellent 40mm lens), spot meter which is great to learn with... small, compact and the lens is as good as or better than 95% of all lenses ever made (it will certainly not be the weak link in your photographic process). They can be had for under $200 in excellent working condition. Used market/demand for this camera remains pretty strong so once you've learned with it and decide that you want to 'graduate' to a more expensive interchangeable rangefinder, you can sell it or keep it as a backup. This approach also frees up considerable amounts of money for you to spend on film, chemicals, paper and access to a darkroom (where 75% of the learning will take place!).

Good luck and enjoy.

there are a couple of inexpensive rangefinders on RFF right now. i had one of the canons for sale many years ago and remember liking it a lot. i also saw a hexar AF on the SF bay area craigslist this week for $400, they're supposed to be decent cameras.

if you have the budget, that tip to buy an R3A or R3M is a good one. if you must have leica glass, older 50mm summicrons are still relatively inexpensive and give good results.

bob

check out these ads on RFF... (link)

ps--i am in no way connected to the seller.

Robert Lee above said: "Second, look for the Contax G1 and G2. This is an (automatic focus, auto-wind, AE) RF manufactured in the mid 90's. It is non-traditionalist RF design to say the least. If for no other reasons though, get this camera for the Zeiss optics. The default lens shipped with the G1 was the 45mm f2 Zeiss Planar. In some circles, this hallowed lens is mentioned only in hush tones. A G1 and 45mm lens in good condition should be around $300. " I kept my G1 and 45/2 after picking up a NIkon D70s a few years back. It is a great little camera...especially *whispers* that lens */whispers*. I think the rangefinder format was great for traveling and miss the light, compact and very capable package. The AE, autofocus et al... might make this an easy camera to transition to. The G1 is slightly smaller than the G2 and probably much cheaper. There are two flavors of the G1 as well. One that is modified to accept the 90mm lens... IIRC. Only shortcomings of the G1 that persistently bugged me was its picky focus autofocus. The manual says it needs vertical lines to focus and they mean it. Other than that, I miss using it. There's a community of users online here: http://http://www.contaxg.com/ that might help on your search. Kevin

Anatole, the days of cheap electronics and cameras in Hong Kong and Singapore are gone! I think you will find just as many good deals closer to home -- and you'll be able to check them out and return them more easily if anything goes wrong. www.photoethnography.com has an excellent table comparing pros and cons of rangefinders v SLRs. Basically, the differences remain much the same as ever: rangefinder = smaller and lighter v SLR (D or otherwise) = heavier but more versatile. It really depends what you want to photograph.

I second the suggestion that you look at the ffordes web site. Decent ,helpful people. I have just bought an M3 from them and the service was first class. Their descriptions are very conservative so the camera was in much better condition than I anticipated.

If you want to start out with a modest outlay you can contact Greg Weber at gweber@webercamera.com or at (402) 721-3873. He sells and services Konica cameras. You will be able to get a Konica Auto S2 in excellent refurbished condition for a good price. The Auto S2 is not as compact as some of the later compact RF cameras but it allows full manual control and has a very sharp lens. If you just go on eBay and buy an old RF camera in unknown condition you will not get the full experience you are looking for.

I agree with Ronald's initial advice. Forget about a rangefinder and get a used Nikon film body. After using digital I predict you'll play with film for about 2 months and then put it aside. Just my $0.02.

If you go to Hong Kong, get it from Tin Cheung (google it). The price is even lower than the web price. I got my R3A/R4A/CV 21/35/75 there. Once you are in, you can get a lot of lens from screw mount to M mount. Lots of choice.

I would suggest you try at least C-41 Black and white film if you do not jump into development film as I do now. It is a complete different world. I use much less my D300. You can get all the basic stuff from Kowloon Life.

I also got a used F75D after the film rangefinder experience is so ok. But the film Nikon is not that much different from D300, unless perhaps you go for a manual one like FMn. As a SLR user, you know the film SLR to a certain extent. But rangefinder experience is eye opened if you can adapted to a mechanical process.

BTW, you have to at least try the experience of R3a and open both eye to see the frameline floating the world to believe how it is so different from SLR tunneling vision. Even Leica does not have this. Only Nikon S2/3/SP or Canon 7 has this kind of experience.

You may start reading rangefinderforum which give you more feel about this line. Not a replacement to SLR as a lot of things you cannot do or easily do like Macro, Sports, Kids movie, ...

One good start is to get Yashica GSN and some other F1.7 or larger aperture fixed lens camera of the oldies. But I still think that go for R3A/R4A is the better path. Of course you can try Leica.

Good luck

Suggestion 1: Olympus XA film camera. Tiny rangefinder with detachable flash. You can carry it along with your digital gear. Good (almost great) lens.

Suggestion 2: Manual Nikon SLR camera (like the FE). Get a 50mm f1.8 lens. The experiencing the added steps of focusing and setting exposure will tell you whether that part of the process works for you. And you'll have a film backup body.

Warning: A few months ago, a friend of mine loaned me a Leica IIIc with a couple of lenses, and I'm hooked. Taking pictures all over the place, suffering from rangefinder CAS, and learning how to develop B+W film.

Good luck.

Olympus XA, compact and cool....

Find a Voigtländer Bessa R and an Ultron 35mm f1.7. You will NOT be disappointed. I've had mine for years. The camera is excellent and the lens is amazing.

Nother vote for the Voigtlander, either second hand or new.

Anatole,

I went through the same process, but I came from a film background in SLRs.

For $100, I bought a really nice 1971 Olympus 35DC RF camera with a fixed Zuiko 40mm f1.7 lens. It's REALLY simply to operate and learn about basic RF operation. It takes great pictures too. I don't think anyone would call it a classic, but it looks really cool slung over my neck too...when I shoot my kids on the weekend, it is certainly reminiscent of those Ralph Lauren B&W ads. I'm actually now looking for something which will allow more control over the shot.

This is a scan of a shot off the first roll. Enjoy whatever you get.

---Dave.

Another suggestion is a medium format rangefinder. One of the Fujifilm 645 series models (with fixed lens) can be had for within your budget.

My first interchangeable lens rangefinder was a Voigtlander (one of the Camera Quest modern ones) with a 35mm Scopar. I eventually traded up to several Contax G's and eventually to the Leica M6 with a 50mm Summicron. In retrospect I should have stopped with the Voigtlander as I saw no perceptible improvement with the more expensive gear. I just had to try the best and wasted a lot of money to satisfy that desire.

Funny how every time this question comes up, people seem to suggest getting a 70's RF for cheap, and if the RF bugs sticks, then upgrade.

The problem with that is when you use a 70's RF, with its dim VF, the chances of the RF bug actually sticking goes down the toilet. It is frustrating to use.

Get a modern body -- one of the Bessa's, and your initial experience is that much better.