Magnum - is this

Well Rui,

Just the illustration of what I said in my message on the thread about Cartier-Bresson... This guy is looking for extraordinary characters and complains about the similarity of dressing of people nowadays in his favorite part of Brooklyn... And he uses a flashgun...

HCB way was the exact opposite, stay unnoticed as long as possible, and photograph ordinary people in normal or extraordinary but significant situations or attitudes...

But what paper is now interested in the true life of ordinary people ?

Most of Bruce Gilden's photographs are for me nothing but trash... Both artistically and technically. I don't know how such people can live from their images...

The fact he used a flashgun with a Leica M for such work is just another non-sense... Flash for flash Weegee's work with a 4"x5" Speed Graphic was far better and far more revealing... Even if the events recorded were far from ordinary life of ordinary people, they were images of a certain reality.

FPW

after seeing a video about Bruce Gilden's work in NY, i never went to visit magnum photos site again (this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkIWW6vwrvM)

You're going to dismiss the work of an entire agency just because one (of several dozen) member's work doesn't appeal to you? OK. Your loss, I suppose.

even if some few photos look nice, i think the intrusive and desrespectfull style is just not up to magnum standards or should i say, the original magnum standards

Just what are the "original magnum standards" according to you? Magnum was founded in 1947 with the express purpose of placing control of the pictures (copyright) in the hands of the photographers, preserving their original authorship and encouraging individual styles. Whether or not you agree with Gilden's approach, his style is his own and appears to me to be perfectly in line with the purposes of Magnum's original reason for being.

even using a flash w/ a leica M... that's a sin

One of the reasons it was deemed a "sin" to use a flash on a Leica M, I suspect, was the horrendously slow flash sync (1/50) of the cloth shutter. So instead of just admitting "this shutter is quiet but it sucks for daylight flash fill," people came up with the excuse that "it's a sin."

of course all of us remember famous Cartier-Bresson quotes about the horror of using a flash: "Avoid making a commotion, just as you wouldn’t stir up the water before fishing. Don’t use a flash out of respect for the natural lighting, even when there isn’t any. If these rules aren’t followed, the photographer becomes unbearably obstrusive"

That was Cartier-Bresson's approach. I, for one, am glad he wasn't stupid enough to impose his own views and philosophies on every prospective Magnum member, otherwise we'd have today an agency of Cartier-Bresson-parroting lemmings indistinguishable from each other.

I remember once hearing a story from a Magnum member about a photographer who applied for membership but was denied. The irate photographer cried out "But look! My pictures look just like Cartier-Bresson's!"

"Yes," the Magnum member said. "And in some cases I can't tell one from the other. But there is a difference: While your pictures look like Cartier-Bresson's, Cartier Bresson's pictures look like no-one else's."

am i an "old traditional guy"

No, just someone who needs to expand his horizons a little. If I took the same approach as yours but applied it to paintings, I'd only be looking at and appreciating prehistoric cave art, while dismissing the work of Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Van Gogh, Vermeer, daVinci et al as "not being up to the original standards."

Have Magnum Members "applied" for membership or has that been extended to them?

I'll second everything that el Fang says.

It's like saying one can't appreciate anything American because you don't like Bush. Just plain, well maybe stupid is a bit harsh.

I like some of the images...partly because they DON'T look like so many images that are blatant copies of the HCB style...I'm starting to cringe everytime I hear someone say they are trying to be unobtrusive so they can catch 'the decisive moment'. Blather.

John, it may have changed in the last few years, but when the book 'Magnum: The Legendary Photo Agency' was published (1996 or so) it appeared that you had to be sponsored to get in. So it sounds like a bit of both...you could probably 'apply' (through a letter/portfolio) to an existing member, who would then recommend you to the agency.

But that may have changed.

There was one funny little quote I remember from that book. It said that every year Magnum gets, literally 1000's of photographers enquiring on how to get in. They have a cap on membership, at the time about 150 photographers, many of them had great egos, meaning that their was lot of infighting and disagreement on how the agency should be run.

The quote said (and I can't for the life of me remember who said it)..."Every year their are a thousand photographers trying to get into Magnum...and 150 trying to get out!"

I get your point.

It's not the pictures (even if i don't like most of them), the main issue here is the lack of respect, and the respect for people you see in HCB photography is far beyond his style. That is an essencial point on HCB (and magnum) principles!

I can tell you if Bruce Gilden ever tries this ... "approach" in European latin countries, we risks getting beaten. And it's pretty obvious why.

"I can tell you if Bruce Gilden ever tries this ... "approach" in European latin countries, we risks getting beaten. And it's pretty obvious why."

well that certainly says a lot about the people living in those countries...

anyway, i don't think it's too disrespectful. some people may not want their picture taken, but gilden's approach is up front. would these people in european latin countries like a photographer taking their picture any better if it was from a distance with a telephoto?

there's a lot of things out there in the street that a lot of people don't like. (smokers, beggers, loud talkers, slow walkers etc) get over it

original standards = disrespecting your subject (human beings)?

In this case I don't think you should compare his approach to painting..but that's just me. I'm quite taken back by his arrogance and intrusive behavior. What is funny and almost unbelievable is how he yells at those he photographs (when they smile or react to a man shoving a camera in their face). I don't really think this guys "style" of photographing is one that really opens peoples minds. There are plenty of photographers who find "characters" without this semi-abusive method.

Rui, I wouldn't judge all of Magnum by the work of Bruce Gilden, but I have to agree with Francois's judgment about his photographs. Gilden's work and technique often seem to be infused with disrespect for the essential humanity of his subjects and thus seems to run counter to the history and spirit of Magnum.

Maybe they include him so that the work of their other photographers will look so much the better by comparison.