Lightsphere II shadows

Example?

Tell your subjects to tilt their heads up a bit. That's all I can think of without seeing an example and your shooting set up. Also, you're not telling us much about the suroundings. Litghtspheres work dirrently in different environments. For intance, outside there's nothing for the difracted light to bounce off of. So you get a bit of softening but no fill.

To add to what Bob said, you may be dialing in more FEC since the Lightsphere wastes a lot of forward light. So you turn up the FEC- but this won't help with shadows under the chin because the ratio is inherently flawed: too much light up, bouncing off the ceiling (which is generally good), but not enough light going forward since A) it has a 360 degree spread and B) it is going through a piece of plastic. Google ABBC (a better bounce card). You can make your own, cheap and effective. Or if you want to spend some money there is the Demb diffuser (equally good and that ability to flag) or Lumiquest also makes a bounce card. All of which will do better than a Lightsphere. How do I know, I have used most of them (haven't used a Demb).

First off, nothing will 'eliminate' shadows. In the right environment the LS can diffuse the shadows enough that they are very light and not hard-edged. Used in anything less than an ideal environment, you will start to get the chin shadow and harder shadows in general, not to mention color cast.

Also, you will get the chin shadow if your subject is fairly close to you/the LS--within 6-8 feet--it gets worse the less ideal the environment. The ideal environment is white walls/ceiling and not large.

Think about how the LS works. it take the beam from the flash and while most of the beam goes toward the ceiling, some of it is 'captured' and pushed out all around, in a 360 degree pattern. That light is bounced off walls. In the ideal environment, the light gets bounced all around and into shadows, making them diffuse. In less than ideal environments, the light gets bounced around but there isn't enough reflectance from the surroundings to make the shadows diffuse--hence the chin shadow.

Then, if the subject is near, the light hits the subject, in effect, 'too soon'. TTL makes the light keep going for what it thinks is the correct exposure. This effect is worse if you dial a wide zoom angle in, because some of that beam goes directly out the front and onto the subject. Most flash units automatically dial a 50mm zoom setting if the flash head is tilted. The dome (in the tilted position) is similar to this, because it absorbs some of the upward beam, making TTL push more out the front and sides.

Plus, if you use it outside, with nothing to bounce off, really, the less-than-ideal effect is even more pronounced.

What kind of portrait shots are you doing that you aren't using directional light?

Here is an example of a quickly taken shot in a corridor with white walls around 10-15 feet high.
Nothing too demanding subject, location or exposure-wise yet there's a horrible hard shadow under the chin.

The ratio is flawed. Try the same shot with a bounce card.

Does your flash automatically change the zoom setting to 50mm? What flash, what camera? Looks like the light going out the front was too strong--see my previous post. If this was a corridor with white walls, I would have bounced the flash head behind me, no LS, no nothing.

Looks like you're using one light, dead on, thats too far away. Move the key closer, it should be no farther than 3 ft away and to the side but no more than 45 degrees. This will place the shadow on the other side of the face. Then add either another strobe or position a reflector on the other side as the fill. Roughly eye level (lower than the key), this will reduce the shadow under the chin. You can even put a second reflector underneath the chin.

Shot with an SB-800 on a D2X through a 28-70mm at 28mm from approx 5 ft away.
It could be I was too close to her for the Lightsphere to do its thing, although on one of Gary Fong's video demos he photographs a girl sitting down in a hotel corridor from 4-5 feet away at best and the results lacked hard shadows
My lighting set-up has usually been off-camera brollies, softboxes etc, so I'm relatively new to flashguns and shooting on the go.
Which I guess is why I got a Lightsphere in the first place - to soften all those nasty flashgun shadows without having think too hard.

So...does your flash automatically change the zoom setting to 50mm when the flash head is tilted or swivelled? Zoom setting makes a difference. Try different ones and see for yourself. Rather than use the dome, I just change zoom settings.

If you notice the samples of the LS on Gary Fong's site, most of them have a chin shadow. Are you using your LS on a flash bracket? If so, you can at least minimize the shadow by using it directly on the flash.

In the end, I don't think you'll be able to minimize the shadow if you are that close to your subject, and, you might be able to minimize it slightly by bringing more ambient into the exposure (probably what the video shows).

I'd recommend reading the article at planetneil.com, under techniques for bouncing tips. There really is no no-thought gizmo that will give you soft lighting from a shoemount flash (save for bouncing off really large surfaces, such as walls and ceilings).

Bounce card.
I hate to keep beating a dead horse but a bounce card, whether it's of the homemade variety or the Lumiquest, the Demb, or the ABBC, will do better. It only costs pennies to make your own and you could confirm this. The nature of light is that the larger the light source, the softer the light. Effective diffusion means increasing the size of the light source. A very effective way to do this is to bounce the light off of a wall or ceiling, in which case the wall or ceiling becomes the light source. The drawback to this is the semi-directional nature of the new light source. In other words, all the light it coming from above or from the side. In the example posted, all of the light is coming from above, making the shadow under the glasses and chin very prominent- even though the light is diffused by the ceiling. There isn't enough light going forward to soften this. A bounce card will increase the size of the light source going forward and it will still be diffused, reflected light, ie, softer than direct flash. Of course multiple flashes, light modifiers, assistants and/or reflectors will always help in getting the light where you may or may not want it. But for on the run event shooting, nothing beats a simple bounce card.

Have you tried using the Chrome Dome attachment with the LightSphere? It can help throw a bit more light forward, in addition to amplifying the light.

For some reason I thought you were talking about a strobe with Softlighter. It makes sense now the light is coming down from the ceiling so naturally i would cast a shadow.
I have a Lightsphere too. If you take the dome off the shadow under the chin will be less pronounced. If your doing head and shoulder shots have the subject hold a white carboard card under the chin but out of the frame like I said before.

Peter,
I am still puzzled by your response above. Did you mean keeping the "dome on" (diffuser cap vice chrome dome) would lessen the harsh shadow under the chin? That appears to be what your photos above show.

Lockett Yee , Mar 02, 2009; 05:00 a.m.

Peter,
I am still puzzled by your response above. Did you mean keeping the "dome on" (diffuser cap vice chrome dome) would lessen the harsh shadow under the chin? That appears to be what your photos above show.

I know its weird but that's not a mistake. With the diffused dome on and pointed at the ceiling it creates the harder shadow under the chin. I don't fully understand why but I think it could be because the dome redirects more light out the front or it concentrates the bounced ceiling light into a smaller brighter beam. Note I'm using the clear LightSphere not the frosted. If you look closer the dome sends more light at the neck area while without it the neck is darker but more uniformly light.

In the original posters situation a darker hallway with a higher ceiling leads to an even harder shadow because it changes the ratio of ceiling bounced light to the light coming out the sides of the Lightsphere. More light out the side/front cause the hard chin shadow.

What your lightspher does for you is make you a few dollars poorer and rob your flash of some power.
What makes the shadows softer is the ceiling or the walls that act as a large reflector.
The "softness" of the shadows is only depending on the size of the lightsource relative to your object (which is
a function of size and distance- large source e.g. sun at great distance=hard shadows).
Experiment: get rid of the lightsphere and bounce the flash off ceiling or wall (or other large reflector compared
to the size of your object ) and see what happens to the shadows.
Regards,
Renato

The dome actually causes more light to go out the sides of the LS. It soaks up the majority of the upward beam, and TTL causes the flash to put out more light, which goes primarily out the sides, and if your subjects are close, such as in the sample, you get hard shadows.

I agree that the Lightsphere does not allow much variability in forward to upward light ratio. As I said above, you need LARGE bounce surfaces to have soft light from a shoemount in these kinds of candid situations. The Demb Diffuser/Flip It offers more variability, but in a situation where you are shooting 5 feet from your subject, you are still going to get harder shadows, if not from the forward light bounced off the card, from the narrow bounce angle to the ceiling and down to the subject, which causes eye socket and chin shadows.

We still haven't heard from Joe about the zoom setting on the flash.

Nadine Ohara - SF Bay Area/CA , Mar 02, 2009; 03:30 p.m.

The dome actually causes more light to go out the sides of the LS. It soaks up the majority of the upward beam, and TTL causes the flash to put out more light, which goes primarily out the sides, and if your subjects are close, such as in the sample, you get hard shadows.
I agree that the Lightsphere does not allow much variability in forward to upward light ratio. As I said above, you need LARGE bounce surfaces to have soft light from a shoemount in these kinds of candid situations. The Demb Diffuser/Flip It offers more variability, but in a situation where you are shooting 5 feet from your subject, you are still going to get harder shadows, if not from the forward light bounced off the card, from the narrow bounce angle to the ceiling and down to the subject, which causes eye socket and chin shadows.

I recently got a LightSphere for an event and I agree, I don't like how the dome eats up power and pushes light out the front and the extra weight it adds. For non-portrait event shots its wasn't readily apparent the subtleties of its operation, but it seemed to perform well for that use. I'm glad this thread came up because it forced me to think and examine how such a minor detail as the dome can dramatically change the light.

There seems to be good deal of backlash against the LightSphere. I'd agree that Fong's claims are deceptive in its exaggeration of the Lightsphere's benefits but I'd stop short of calling it a waste of money. I'd have to do a side by side comparison with other diffusers such as Demb before I could have a more definitive opinion on the matter. Regardless, I'd say the process of purchasing the Lightsphere has pushed me to better understand my camera flash and improve my technique of bounce and diffusion to achieve better pictures.

One other thing, in defense of Fong he clearly states the frosted Lightshere should be used for portraits.

Nadine, the zoom doesn't appear to change automatically to 50mm when tilted or swivelled and I wasn't using a flash bracket.
As for the chin shadows on Fong's pics in his video, they're not anything like as harsh as mine if noticeable at all and I wouldn't want completely flat lighting with no hint of shadow that would help provide shape and depth.
Based on the many helpful responses so far, I get the feeling that a combination of not being so close - although not an issue in Fong's vid/pics - and better usage of ambient light via shutter setting might help.
I'll also try some shots with the chrome dome as suggested as logic says more light straight on would fill the shadows better even though I could end up chasing my tail given Mike's flawed ratio theory.
Peter pics helpful as they are defy logic when it comes to the dome as surely taking the dome off would allow more light to hit the ceiling and less to go through the sphere thereby reducing fill-in resulting in more chin shadow.
Compared to using regular bounced light around a room which is more forgiving and faster, there seems to be a bit more physics and calculating involved in order to get the kind of shots many rave about from a Lightsphere ie lack of racoon eyes and a softer looking light with no fuss.

I still use my LS sometimes, but have found that the Demb Diffuser/Flip It can mimic it most of the time.

Joe, I'd check the zoom setting, because if some of the flash's beam is going directly out the front and hitting your subject, there's your answer right there re the chin shadow being so prominent. Also, some flashes have a custom function or setting that accommodates the crop sensor, so check that too. If the flash beam isn't self adjusting, I'd manually adjust it. Try it and see. I use Canon, so I don't know about the SB units.

I am sure part of the reason the chin shadows in the video don't seem to be that bad is due to shutter drag.

I don't think the chrome dome will improve things, and might make it worse.

The dome actually is recommended for use in rooms with low ceilings. This is because (and you can test it yourself) if you bounce flash (no modifier on) in as short a distance as 5 feet in a low ceiling-ed room, the flash's beam redirects strongly off the ceiling, causing harder shadows. It doesn't have time to spread out and create that LARGE spot on the ceiling. Try it for yourself. The dome stops that strong redirect. Unfortunately, TTL causes it to push light out the sides. With high ceilings--over 15 feet--I leave my zoom setting at 50mm. With low ceilings, I widen it to 35mm or even wider. I don't use the dome anymore--too rigid--you can't fine tune.

I did some more tests and here's what I found. The dome does 3 things:
1. It warms the light especially the bounced.
2. It diffuses the bounced light
3. It pushes more light out the sides resulting in the hard chin shadow.
If you wrap the sides in Aluminum foil all the light is forced out the top to be bounced off the ceiling this eliminates the the chin shadow. Removing the dome eliminates the shadow too but results in a cooler temp. Your other option is to purchase the frosted LS.

The Lightsphere is providing light straight on, while diffusing it, and light off the ceiling, which is very diffuse, but it is not providing any light from below, which is the only place you are going to get any light to fill the shadow under the chin. If that's what you want, choose a room with a white floor and hold the camera up-side-down.

Better yet, throw out the Lightsphere, give the subject a white reflector to hold horizontal at chest level, and aim your flash at the ceiling.

Van