Review of Seven Years in Tibet

Hi my name is Leandro Stasi i'm a friend of Roni I'm using his compueter. I worked at Seven years in Tibet, I'Lived in Mendoza and they took me like an extra. I was in the camp (jail) as german civil with some friends like civil and others like soldiers german or italian, this is a great experience the movie is reali good i'd really like how they make a movie. We spent a lot of time fooling around drinking Villavicencio (water) it was really hot there. We sow Brad some times is nice but he has bodyguards we could'n reach. We sow too Jean-Jack and David, they don't has body gruards and we take some pictures with they. We make the first 10 min of the movie they was 5 or 6 frame. We sow brad escape 3 times or 2 and when the gurkas take him back and we scream some stuff and they put brad in a litle jail. There was a rain scene too and. I'm the guy that run from the kitchen to the tables under the rain. I have some pictures from the scenario and Brad and Jean-Jack and David and lot stuff more like cars, bikes, people. I thik the movie will be really good. I'm sorry for my english Send me Information

Another book to read along with Seven Years in Tibet is Lowell Thomas's "Out of This World" which details the journey he and his father took to Tibet in 1949.

Heinrich Harrer is one of the greatest mountain climbers of all time, a member of the first group to scale the north face of the Eiger in Switzerland in the 30's. This is why the Nazis recruited him for this Himalaya expedition which they wished to use for propaganda purposes. To take part, he had to join the party. This info was made public only recently and I'm looking forward to seeing how the film treats it. Harrer is still buddies with the Dalai Lama. Anecdote: in London in the '50s, he gave a reading from his book which was attended by the commandant of the camp from which he escaped. The guy was good-naturedly pissed off not only about the trouble Harrer's escape had caused him but also that he had to pay to get into the reading.

I read Seven years in Tibet over 15 years ago, a first edition book I still keep. It was given to me by my father while planning a trip to India. The book not only changed my trip but my life, to the point that I visited Tibet for the first time on my honeymoon. It was a dream come true as well as a nightmare, after seeing what the chinese have done to that country. I only hope the movie helps give the world a view about Tibet and that many more become active on the Tibetean cause. Om mani padme hum

Okay, so things come out about the author. It wasn't exactly as it was portrayed. Okay. Then again, the simplicity of the story-telling and the joy of the road that is conveyed - that is the attraction. Here you have the tao of the road. Not a lot of sugary sentimentality. Just a notebook of the road. Somehow the Ancient One uses the jaw-bone of an ass again to thwart the hoards of despair. Someone wrote about Princess Diana this week and said that she became the real queen of her heart and the world somehow because she left the monarchy and the palace and became the truest representative of all that's really good, all that's royal in all of us. Harrer reminds us that going in deeply, going down into the primitive despair brings out of the captivity of tradition a clear light from the roof of the world.

I just wanted to mention that Heinrich Harrer also wrote an excellent book called the "White Spider" which accounts his first ascent of the north face of the Eiger.

i hav been a student of Tibetian Buddhism for over 20 years. It' was not till I had the good fortune(karma) to host the elder brother of His Holiness The Dalai Lama, Thupten J Norbu RInpoche for a week as whe was leading a group of peace walkers from Washington,D.C. to NYC. To hear Rinpoche describe the problems and suffering of the Tibetian people and his personal experieces under the Chinese has changed my life andway of thinking. The culturial genocide is just as calculated as the Hitler Nazi people did to my past family in Germany. Seven Years in Tibet and the forth coming film, Kundun will do more for the world stage than any government org. or media exposure can do. This is what China does not want.

The life of Heinrich Harrer has been a very strange and exceptional one. And since the release of the movie Seven Years In Tibet, attention has been brought to his membership in the Nazi party just prior to World War 2. Through his association with what was later discovered to be one of the most horrible political regimes of this century, an attempt has been made by some to undermine the significance of the near superhuman strength and endurance it took for two human beings to have successfully completed such an undertaking. By this association, Harrer's information relating to what happened to Tibet and the Tibetans under the Chinese has also been questioned. Regardless of what Harrer believed at the time of his imprisonment, by the time that he had completed his seven year odyssey, he was a changed man. His descriptions of Tibet as a technologically poor, but spiritually rich culture cannot be refuted. And his love of Tibet and the Tibetan people continues to this day, and justifiably so. Any person who has come in contact with Tibetan refugees notices their dedication to non-violence and spirituality. No tyranny can take this from them. It is ironic that in absenting himself from one group's genocide, Harrer came into direct confrontation with that of another. It is intolerant hatred that is the cause of all such horrors. Some of the reviewers in this location have expressed great antagonism and anger toward Harrer and even toward the Dalai Lama. That is a pity, because it is obvious that Heinrich Harrer long ago renounced all his former affiliations with the Nazis as a tremendous mistake in his life, and that since he left Tibet nearly fifty years ago, he has been dedicated to the emancipation of an occupied and enslaved people who have suffered and continue to suffer under a regime as cruel and ruthless as the nazis. Every Tibetan refugee I've spoken with, and I have spoken to a great many such people over the past twenty years, have all verified the sometimes inconceivably inhuman treatment the Tibetans have been subjected to by the Chinese communists. Yes there may have been many abuses in the old feudal Tibetan system which the Dalai Lama was born into. (These he has clearly and categorically renounced for truly democratic and peaceful principles, principles under which even his greatest detractors would be able to live in peace and freedom.) But to compare the abuses of the old feudal system and to try and justify the scale of the intentional and systematic killing, torturing,unlawful imprisonment and genocide of an entire race and culture is a total delusion. Genocide is completely unjustified. There is absolutely no justification for it. There never has been and never will be any justification for it. None. There is no justification for torture and cruelty. There is no justification for hatred. There is no justification for unkindness. As long as we as a species justify such manifestations and impulses in ourselves, regardless of ideology or belief, that is how long we will live in a world of terror, suffering and unhappiness. We must all stop perpetuating the conditions that lead to the negative way in which we find the world. It is not a matter of finger pointing any longer, we've all contributed our own negativity to make the world as it is. Rather, it is each human being's responsibility to live in a way that is conscious, loving, just, truthful and according to universal conscience. If everyone of our species does not adopt such an attitude, starting now, it is very unlikely that the human race is going anywhere except on the fast-track to oblivion and extinction.

With reference to the person requesting proof about the genocide in Tibet, and that such statements shouldn't be made before we get both sides of the story, I would recommend that the writer who lived in China and even visited Tibet should speak to the head of Amnesty International and also anyone connected to the International Red Cross who has served in Tibet over the last forty years. As well, he might visit any number of Tibetan refugee camps in India, Nepal and Bhutan. Perhaps you might listen to the stories of some of the new arrivals. The fact that you visited Tibet as a tourist and saw nothing really doesn't mean that repression isn't going on. The victimizers seldom let the victims stay in view of visitors. The fact that China occupies Tibet at this very moment is proof enough of the aggression that has taken place. Tibet was once a free nation that was violently over-run and occupied by the Communists, regardless of all the propaganda to the contrary. 99% (over 6,000) of all the monasteries in Tibet have been destroyed. Over the past 40 years, one and a quarter million Tibetans have died through the violence of the present regime. There are presently more Chinese in Tibet than Tibetans. Through a program of forced evacuations that are moving Tibetans out of their own homeland, forbidding Tibetans to teach Tibetan to their own children and the threat of imprisonment to anyone who even makes mention of the Dalai lama, an intentional program of cultural genocide is taking place. It is all too easy to listen to the denials; it is not so easy to have lived in Tibet as a native Tibetan since 1950. It is a human tragedy that affects everyone in the human community. My own contact with the Tibetans has not been intentional, yet it has had a great impact on my life. Everyone wishes for a peaceful and rational resolution to the "Tibet problem," but the fact is that the Chinese stole Tibet from the Tibetans. And the present Chinese government doesn't want to give it back. It's that simple. And anyone who opposes them gets to be on their most wanted list; like Heinrich Harrer, Jean-Jacques Annaud, Brad Pitt, Martin Scorcese, Richard Gere, etc., etc. And if you should in some way bring it to the attention of the Chinese authorities that you somehow objected to what they were doing, you also would end up on that list. In many instances, obtaining proof about certain things has to do with the willingness to find the proof. All the previous examples of the crimes against the Tibetan people have been documented through international agencies. Truly, the only way to resolve the problem is for the Chinese government to return Tibet to the Tibetan people as a free and democratic nation. I suggest that you ask any pre-occupation Tibetan whether or not they want a Tibet free of Chinese interference and control. If they could speak freely (which they can't), what do you think they would say?

Traditional society and democratic framework for future Tibet

Introduction

China has always justified its policy in Tibet by painting the darkest picture of traditional Tibetan society. The military invasion and occupation has been termed a "liberation" by China of Tibetan society from "medieval feudal serfdom" and "slavery". Today, this myth is repeatedly rehashed to justify China's own violations of human and political rights in Tibet, and to counter all international pressure on Beijing to review its repressive policies in occupied Tibet.

Traditional Tibetan society was, by no means, perfect and was in need of changes. The Dalai Lama and other Tibetan leaders have admitted as much. That is the reason why the Dalai Lama initiated far-reaching reforms in Tibet as soon as he assumed temporal authority. The traditional Tibetan society, however, was not nearly as bad as China would have us believe.

Whatever the case may be, for several reasons the Chinese justifications make no sense. First of all, international law does not accept justifications of this type. No country is allowed to invade, occupy, annex and colonize another country just because its social structure does not please it. Secondly, the PRC is responsible for bringing more suffering in the name of liberation. Thirdly, necessary reforms were initiated and Tibetans are quite capable of doing so.

In its 1960 report on Tibet, the International Commission of Jurists stated that:

Chinese allegations that the Tibetans enjoyed no human rights before the entry of the Chinese were found to be based on distorted and exaggerated accounts of life in Tibet. Accusations against the Tibetan "rebels" of rape, plunder and torture were found to have been deliberately fabricated and in other cases unworthy of belief for this and other reasons.

Famine and starvation were unheard of in independent Tibet. There were, of course, years of poor harvest and crop failures. But people could easily borrow from the buffer stock held by the district administrations, monasteries, aristocrats and rich farmers. From 1950 onwards, the Chinese military and civilian personnel were fed on the state buffer stocks and forced the Tibetan populace to sell their personal holding of grains to them for nominal prices. "Liberation" was, in reality, the right to equal poverty for all. Palden Gyatso, a 61-year-old monk who escaped from Tibet in 1992 after serving 33 years in Chinese jails and labour camps, puts it succinctly: "The Chinese definitely succeeded in making the rich poor. But they did not help the poor. The poor became poorer and we were reduced to a nation of tsampa beggars."

In his book, Tibet and its History, Hugh Richardson wrote: "Even communist writers have had to admit there was no great difference between rich and poor in (pre-1949) Tibet." In fact, when Hu Yaobang saw the extent of the poverty in Central Tibet in 1980, he stated that the living standard should be brought up at least to the pre-1959 level.

Democratic reforms

In 1959, the Dalai Lama re-established his Government in India, soon after his flight from Tibet, and a series of democratic changes were initiated. A popularly elected body of people's representatives, parliament-in-exile, was constituted. In 1961 the Dalai Lama prepared a draft constitution for future Tibet and sought the opinion of Tibetans on this matter.

In 1963, a detailed draft constitution for a future Tibet was promulgated. Despite strong opposition, the Dalai Lama insisted on the inclusion of a clause which stated that the executive powers of the Dalai Lama shall be exercised by the Council of Regents when the National Assembly, by majority of two-thirds of its total members in consultation with the Supreme Court, decides that this is in the highest interests of the State.

On 10 March 1969, the Dalai Lama announced that on the day Tibet regained its independence the Tibetan people must decide for themselves as to what kind of system of government they wanted.

In 1990, further changes were introduced by increasing the strength of the Assembly of Tibetan People's Deputies (ATPD) from 12 to 46. It was given more constitutional powers such as the election of the kalons (ministers), who were previously appointed directly by the Dalai Lama. The Supreme Justice Commission was set up to look into people's grievances against the Administration.

In January 1992, the Dalai Lama announced the Guidelines for future Tibet's Polity and the Basic Features of its Constitution, wherein he stated that he would not "play any role in the future government of Tibet, let alone seek the Dalai Lama's traditional political position." The future government of Tibet, the Dalai Lama said, would be elected by the people on the basis of adult franchise. The Dalai Lama also announced that during the transition period, between withdrawal of the repressive Chinese troops from Tibet and the final promulgation of the Constitution, the administrative responsibilities of the state will be entrusted to the Tibetan functionaries presently working in Tibet. During this transitional period, an interim president will be appointed to whom the Dalai Lama will delegate all his political powers and responsibilities. The Tibetan Government-in- Exile will ipso facto cease to exist.

The guidelines for Tibet's future polity also stated:

Future Tibet shall be a peace-loving nation, adhering to the principle of ahimsa (non-violence). It shall have a democratic system of government committed to preserving a clean, healthy and beautiful environment. Tibet shall be a completely demilitarised nation.

The Tibetan struggle is, thus, not for the resurrection of the traditional system as the Chinese claim. The continuous Chinese attempts at personalising the Tibetan issue to hinge upon the Dalai Lama's own status is a subterfuge to mask the main issue of the Tibetan national struggle.

I think several points should be kept in mind to maintain our objectivity here.

Some Chinese insist the "world" more or less "accepts" that Tibet is part of China. But think back to the year 1910, when Japan annexed Korea. Japan had exerted control over Korea since 1895, and controlled every aspect of Korean culture from 1910 to 1945. The governments of the world accepted this. In 1931, Japan also brought the "independent country" of Manchukuo under its "protection." Maps from the period show Manchukuo as part of Japan's empire, and a handful of central American countries recognized the new state.

In reality, neither situation was worth distubring, as far as the "outside" world was concerned. Everyone knew Korea was Korea, and not "Cho-sen" and Manchuria belonged to the Manchurians who were the last imperial rulers of the mainland of China.

Therefore, it matters not that the world doesn't outright "refuse" to recognize Tibet as independent. Chinese can gnash their teeth, beat their chests, and cite passages from the Great Khan's war histories. It makes no difference. They fail to mention the Khan not only claimed to have conquered Tibet, but he also conquered the whole of China itself.

We cannot reject Chinese facts that Tibet has been associated in various ways with the great many historical Chinese governments. This is factual. But does associated by marraige or political partnership survive imperial abdication? Does the fact land once "belonged" to a long extingushed empire automatically entitle that same land to a government which arises 50 years later? I am sure territorial ownership laws of this sort open up a cans of worms best left sealed.

Posession is nine tenths of the law. It is unlike China can withdraw fro Tibet, and Chinese have pride, as well. What should be striven for is a solution which allows Tibet to survive as a culture, as an ethnic group. I don't claim to have any real answers, but absolute, blanket statements from the Chinese side only encourage resistance from the world and the Tibetans. China demands that Japan apologize for its crimes against Chinese, and this has been done by two prime ministers, countless intellectuals, and even former soldiers themselves. It is now time for China to stop acting like a victim and make its remorse and regret known internationally for the misbehavior of its own soldiers in the peaceful region of Tibet. We will save its repression of Uighurs and Mongols for another forum, although it is just as important.

Incidentally, Seven Years in Tibet was a fine film. I recommend it wholeheartedly.

When I originally wrote my review of the movie Seven Years In Tibet, I did not realize how violent and fanatical a response there would be from supporters of the Chinese communist government. I am rather shocked at the racial slur directed at one of our contributors, though! Please no more of that, o.k? In any case, it has been interesting to go down the page to view the see-saw of opinions about Tibet. My impression is that the matter of Tibetan sovereignty needs to be addressed and arbitrated in the arena of international relations and not at the local level of internal Chinese affairs. From the contacts I've had with numerous people from around the world, there is no question in my mind that the sympathy of most ordinary human beings lies with the Tibetan cause for freedom, and not with the Chinese communists. With regard to the stance that most governments have taken, it is obvious that their inaction toward supporting Tibetan independence is based not on the unethicalness of the occupation, but on the fear they have toward China's military might. I am not an American, but a working-class refugee from an eastern European country that was occupied by the communists, so I do have a clear idea of how suppressive those regimes are. Members of my family were jailed simply for voicing objections to how the communists were handling things. Many innocent people were brutalized and even killed. Meanwhile, these same occupiers were telling the rest of the world what a great benefit their presence was having in "reforming" the old system of life and government. It is only now after the fall of communism in the Soviet Union and its satellites that the true story of what actually happened is coming out. It is not a pretty picture. So having had first-hand experience with one such regime, the rhetoric and propaganda relating to why another such regime should have the right to occupy and rule a weaker neighbor is all too familiar. The abuses going on in Tibet have never only affected the "noblity" and "upper classes." The entire population has suffered and continues to suffer. Every "expert" opinion supporting the Chinese opinion should be viewed within the context of whether or not there is an underlying motive for it. In the case of Tibet, it is quite clearly that the Chinese do not want to give back Tibet to the Tibetans. It is also the fact that the Chinese leaders have never been willing to admit to any wrong-doing that perpetuates the problem. Ultimately that monolithic attitude will be one of the contributing factors to the fall of communism in China. This is not to say that other governments, such as the U.S., and their allies have not committed unconscionable acts against minorities and other groups. These still have to be dealt with, there is no question of that. But one atrocity does not justify the existence of another. At the level of one interconnected world community of humanity, the inhumanity of one group towards another, one person towards another must completely cease. And this doesn't only mean at a physical level, but at a level where one's thoughts are no longer regulated by some existing ideology, but are allowed the freedom to explore the universe within and without unto infinity. I think that along those lines, we all have a long way to go. I hope that my comments and opinions have not offended too many people. It is difficult to state the "absolute" truth in a relative world. In support of the Tibetan view that outsiders are not allowed to have access to all the facts about the conditions inside Tibet, I submit the following article. It is to point out some of the discrepancies between what people are told about Tibet by the Chinese (which some of our Chinese friends have contributed at this site) and what some recent visitors to Tibet have experienced. It is up to the reader to search his or her heart and to eliminate the wheat from the chaff. Best wishes to everyone, regardless of what any of us think.

e.t.

German human rights delegation to Tibet decries concealment

BEIJING, Sept 9 (AFP) - German parliamentarians returning from a human rights mission to Tibet on Tuesday decried concealment and evasion by Chinese authorities during their four-day stay.

The visit was "totally set up," MP Gerd Poppe, a former dissident under East Germany, told reporters.

The delegates -- seven members of the parliamentary Foreign Relations sub-committee on Human Rights -- could not freely contact people, and their movements were highly restricted, he said.

The sub-committee chairman, Christian Schwarz-Schilling, said Chinese officials refused to discuss individual dissident cases raised by the group.

Although repeatedly asked about the status of the child picked by the Dalai Lama as the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama and his family, the officials refused to provide information, he said.

Gendun Choekyi Nyima -- still covertly recognised by many Tibetan Buddhists -- disappeared soon after Beijing inserted its own child candidate for Tibet's second-highest religious leader in May 1995.

"An eight-year-old boy shouldn't be allowed to be a pawn of national politics," said Schwarz-Schilling, a sinologist and former minister of posts and telecommunications.

"There is human rights deficit in Tibet, and we hope for a more open dialogue," he added.

Poppe said Chinese officials in Beijing and Tibet were inflexible during talks with the group. "I couldn't describe it as a dialogue ... it was more of a monologue," he said.

The officials repeatedly claimed not to have heard of high-profile dissidents such as imprisoned monks, he said, adding that they also denied knowledge of where Ngawang Choephel -- a US-based Tibetan musician sentenced to 18 years in jail for spying last December -- was imprisoned.

Sub-committee vice-chairman Volker Neumann said officials were willing to discuss judicial issues in terms of aggregate figures. They indicated that "so-called political prisoners" accounted for 11 percent of those detained in Tibet -- a rate 20 times as large as in the rest of China, he said.

But the parliamentarians said it was difficult to get a clear idea of Tibetan prison conditions based on their visit to a part of one facility.

It was clear from the behaviour of both guards and inmates that the latter had been instructed not to even look at, let alone talk to, the visitors, Poppe said, adding that it was a "bizarre scene."

Officials asked about torture gave contradictory answers, but items that could be used for the purpose were in clear evidence in the prison, the delegates said.

Schwarz-Schilling cited a "regrettable" trend towards a prevalence of Chinese language, rather than indigenous Tibetan, in the daily and political life of Lhasa, Tibet's capital.

But he also cautioned that development of human rights in China should be viewed as a long-term process, citing encouraging signs that ordinary Tibetans -- monks and nuns excepted -- seemed to enjoy more religious freedom than in his previous trips to the region.

Germany's lower house of parliament, the Bundestag, sparked a bilateral diplomatic crisis in June last year when it adopted a resolution criticising human rights abuses in Tibet.

Chinese troops seized control of Tibet in 1951, but the Dalai Lama did not flee the region until a failed anti-Chinese uprising eight years later.

Considered a separatist enemy of the state by Beijing, the spiritual leader has since headed a government-in-exile in India and campaigned peacefully for Tibetan self-determination.

i wish i could have lived in tibet at those times. actually take the adventure. evnter the unknown. it would be a new life altogether.

The following article was written by Charles Ealy, Staff writer of the Dallas morning news on 10/12. It makes a lot of sense and provide good reference for its readers.

Title: Tibet's Shaket history. Much of this ("7 years in Tibet") 'ture' story just isn't so.

Seven Years in Tibet may succeed as a movie, but it fails as history.

The trouble stems from the source: Austrian explorer Heinrich Harrer's 1952 memoir of life in the isolated Tibetan capital of Lhasa during World War 2. A look at the historical record shows that the book is a mountain of misrepresentation and omission, a monument to conveniently selective memory.

Hollywood, of course has a long tradition of garbling history just recall the firestorms Oliver Stone kicked up with JFK and Nixon), so Seven Years in Tibet, which opened Friday, isn't exactly a standout in that regard. And Mr. Harrer's adventure tale is highly readable.

But director Jean-Jacues Annaud and his movie's disstributor, Mandalay Entertainment, discovered just how troublesome a memory can be when the German magazine Stern reveal this summer that Mr.Harrer-the hero of the $70 million movie-was a former Nazi, a member of the elite Schutzstaffel , or SS.

The disclosure prompted such an uproar that Mr. Annaud made changes in the script to acknowledge his subject's past. (In the film, during the Chinese invasion of Tibet, Brad Pitt as Mr. Harrer intones in a voice over, "I shudder to recall how at one time I embraced the same beliefs, how at one time I was no different from these intolerant Chinese.") Mandalay, also wary of a public relations disaster, quietly suggested that Mr. Harrer stay home Liechtenstein during the U.S. movie premiere.

Since then, Mr. Harrer has been apologetic about the omission, saying that his membership in the SS was "an aberration" in an otherwise honorable life. but he has also a tinge of indignation, telling Vanity Fair: "I can't go around with a plate on my chest. Everybody has something they are not proud to show off." He has also failed to include the information in the book's 1997 reprint (Counterpoint, $26)

That's not the only missing fact. Mr. Harrer declines to reveal that he left a pregnant wife to go on his Himalayan adventure and that the mother, after giving birth, left the son with a grandmother. While the movie includes the father's desertion, the son says it misrepresents the rest of the story giving the boy a happy home life with mother and stepfather. The movie also stages a grand reconciliation atop a mountain between father and son.

That never happened, the son says. In fact, peter Harrer told vanity fair that he spent most of his youth in boarding schools, that he wasn't invited to attend his father's second wedding and that he and his father see each other about once a year.

The book- and the movie-also paint a highly emotional portrait of Tibetan political history, failing to acknowledge the enormous complexities that have troubled international diplomats for decades. Such simplification is typical of the U.S. media's approach to history, says Dr. A. Tom Grunfeld , a Tibetan expert who teaches at the State University of New York. "There is an accepted wisdom on Tibet and it's very difficult to get the U.S. media interested in an intellectual discussion," he says. "Many people won't accept that there's a middle ground between being an advocate for Tibetan independence and being a Chinese communist, but there is."

A review of recent books on Tibetan history illuminates these key points:

* The Dalai Lama fled Lhasa after the arrival of Chinese troops in the early 50's. He even wrote poems in praise of Mao Tse-tung. For details see Dr. Grunfeld's the making of modern Tibet (M.E. Sharpe Inc., 1996).

* The movie asserts that more than 1.2 million Tibetans have been killed since the Chinese invasion. These figures are based on estimates from the Dalai Lama, but there is little documentary evidence to determine their accuracy. Whatever the case, the human tragedy in Tibet is not in question.

* Contrary to the movie, the Chinese entry into Lhasa in 1950 was peaceful rather than violent. By far, the greatest number of casualties came during the rebellion in the late 1950s and during the famine resulting from the Great Leap Forward of the 1960s.

* Tibet's own policies have muddied its claims to independence. On numerous occasions before the 1950s, Tibetan officials acknowledged that China had "suzerainty" over their land. In essence this meant that china was in charge of all foreign policy and diplomatic matters.

* Tibetan society was far removed from the utopian Hollywood vision found in such movies as Lost Horizon - and at odds with the portrait painted by Mr. Harrer . It was essentially feudal, with nearly 60 percent of the population in serfdom. Several scholarly studies also assert the existence of slavery, although Tibetan independence advocates deny the allegation. But Dr. Grunfeld's book documents slavery's existence in the most affluent households. And there are even allusions to slavery in Mr. Harrer's book.

Several other new books explore various facets of the Tibetan controversy:

* Mary Craig provides exhausting detail about the Dalai Lama in her new history of the family in exile, Kundun: A Biography Of The Family Of The Dalai Lama (Counterpoint, $26).

* Jestun Pema, the sister of the Dalai Lama, provides more intimate details in Tibet: My Story (Element Books, $24.95).

* Tashi Tsering, a Native Tibetan, describes the daily life of the lowest rung of Tibetan society in The Struggle For Tibet (M.A. Sharpe Inc., $27.95)

* And Melvyn C. Goldstein, an anthropologist at Case Western Reserve University provides an overview of Chinese politics in The Snow Lion and the dragon (University of California Press, 19.95)



I've been to Tibet in my senoir year in college. Our survey team climbed the snow covered mountains and lived in the guest rooms of a Tibetian Buddish Temple for 7 weeks. The movie "7 years in tibet" stired up lots of my memories. In terms of visual art I liked the movie. For someone who had been there, every detail about the mountains, the temples, the worshipers are so true, so real. The climbing senece, the horror of fall, the regret of failure, the fear of walking in a snow storm in the middle of nowhere, all came back to me. ( I attempted climbing the so called Mount Tripple Ridge, came within 200 meters to the peak, had to retreat because of wind storm and injured partner.) But the movie also tried to send a very clear message to the audiance, that China is an evil, which I found so offensive, the next day when I went to work I started to talk to my colleages about the movie, and told them the other side of the story. Of course they are all surprised because nobody had heard of it before. In my "7 weeks in Tibet" I played pool with young Lamas, traded my gas lighters for their beautifully crafed knives, took pictures in their suit, shopped for supplies in Tibetian market. It was a remote county in northern Tibet, people there were poor and seems happy, unaffected by the outside world. Behind the temple there's a high school and a middle school, all are new 2- story concrete buildings, along with the post office and an elementary school were the only modern buildings in town. I remember how I intentionally ignored these buildings in my study skecth, 'cause the rest of the town made a perfect senece for Western Movie. People rode horses in the dust covered streets, and we had to get our drinking water from a fountain. I was born in a coastal town in northern China and have enjoyed a rather comfortable life. The year is 1993 and my family and my hometown is getting rich fast, and life has become very complicated. I wrote in my diary:" It seems that you do not need to be rich to be happy. Look at these Lamas. Look at these Tibetian people. They lived pure and simple." It still reminds me today when I worried too much about my money. But the movie "7 years in Tibet" gave us a very dark and brutle picture of life in Tibet. I understand that it was only the opinion of the author, who hates and fears communism, but the AD of "A true story" and the numbers given at the end of the movie suggested this is "the truth, the only truth and nothing but truth." So I am telling my friends my own story of 7 weeks in Tibet, and other stories that are not accessable to them, like the slavery, the rebell, the PLA , and the modernization. I figure that the media would never try to give my beloved country a note on the positive side. So I would do my part, do the best I can, and call for my Chinese brothers and sisters to tell the world, that we are not evils; that we have had problems but we are catching up fast now; that we do not deserve to be dishonored through a public media by a handful of people who hate us.

I am very concerned that all people, including Tibetans, should enjoy the rights and respect of free persons. This book and film should not be glorifying the religious beliefs of a prominent Nazi.

The Nazi's crimes against humanity were the result of their occultic religious beliefs, which they referred to as the New Age religion. Central to their Aryan supremacy belief was Tibetanism and the teachings of the Tibetan Masters. Knowing this, it would appear that Harrer's travel and experiences in Tibet were a continuation of his prior experiences and beliefs, rather than a change.

It concerns me greatly that today's New Age Movement is virtually identical to the religious beliefs of the Nazi's. They seek to combine and unify the same occultic and eastern religions. They both stress Aryan purity (See especially Alice Bailey and David Spangler), including the teaching that through a higher conciousness they are evolving into an advanced species, and that Jews, blacks, and fundamental religionists such as Bible believing Christians are part of an inferior species. A slight difference is that today's New Age Master's have learned the lessons of World War Two and have placed Evangelical Christians first on their hate list, ahead of the Jews. (It is less well known, but true that the Nazi's murdered several million Christians, along with six million Jews in their death camps.) Both speak of a future "cleansing" of the earth from those that don't fit into their totalitarian system. Of course in today's society they have to keep much of this quiet from the general public, but it can be easily found in their writings. Both movements follow high level initiates of occultic practices, such as yoga, Tibetanism, gnosticism, the Secret Doctrine of Helena Blavatsky and the Tibetan Masters as well as Alice Bailey. Both believe in the law of Karma and in reincarnation. Both believe the gods are established in Shamballa. Both trace their beliefs to Atlantis. Both seek to embody Luciferic energies (including the Nazi's Hitler and today's New Age leader David Spangler). Both use pagan style initiation proceedures for their followers. Both advocate state control of the breeding of humans. Both seek the institution of a New World Order where Aryanism will prevail.

Hinduism and Bhuddism are central pillars of the New Age Religious Movement. Be very cautious of anyone who tries to soft sell any of these doctrines which have become part of the New Age. Person's with Nazi-like beliefs didn't die out with Hitler, and I'm sure they hope that "Seven Years in Tibet" will encourage others to explore their beliefs.

Jesus Christ said "I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. No one comes to the father but through me." The Bible has always been 100% accurate including hundreds of prophecies and thousands of years of history. Please consider it.

You will all be proud to note that this page has gotten more comments than ANY of the other pages on my 500,000 hit/day Web site.

Unfortunately, a lot of the postings seem to be anonymous and not based on first-hand experience. I would really rather not fill up my database with anonymous political opinions. And I certainly don't want a server full of hearsay.

This is not to say that I want to censor folks' voices. If you say "I am joe_smith@umn.edu and I went to Tibet and I saw an 8-year-old Tibetan kill three Chinese soldiers in cold blood" then I will respect your personal experience, difficult as I might find the story to believe. But if you anonymously say "Chinese good; Tibetans bad" or "Tibetans good; Chinese bad" then you aren't doing anything beyond encouraging me to come up with more efficient software for deleting comments (and believe me, my current software is plenty efficient).

I didn't write the book review. I have listened to _Seven Years_ as a book on tape. It does sound like the lower-class Tibetans were living a pretty bad life compared to the upper class. On the other hand, I'm not sure that the disparity between Bill Gates and the average working loser here in the US is any different.

Finally, I actually do know one Tibetan. She is unable to return to her homeland due to travel restrictions imposed by the Chinese. She says that there has been a massive displacement of the Tibetans by the Chinese, who've basically pushed the Tibetans into India and/or killed and/or starved them. Meanwhile, the Chinese have moved their own people and culture into spots left vacant by displaced and/or dead Tibetans. I'm not sure if this is as bad as genocide in the traditional German WWII sense (where the Germans would travel to other countries specifically with the intent of killing all the Jews (remember that only 250,000 of the 6 million Jews killed were actually living in Germany, the rest were Russian, Polish, French, Dutch, etc.)). But the fact that the Chinese have refrained from pursuing the Tibetans across the border to India isn't going to be very comforting for someone who misses his culture and homeland.

Anyway, I haven't been to Tibet so I really should take my own advice and shut up. But in the future, I'd only like to see comments on this forum from people who actually are quoting ordinary Tibetans or Chinese OR who have themselves been to Tibet.

Why was my post deleted? I was just telling everyone of my experience in Tibet in !994. It was a much better place now the end of slavery in 1950. There is even a museum there of the various punishments used by the Dalai Lama and thugs to control the local population before the central government made him stop and I saw NO sign of genocide.

Why? I can tell you right now. Because these westerners have been fed the so-called "fact": China invaded Tibet in 1950, ever since they were in kindergarten. So now whatever the asses of free-Tibet movement say, they trust it. In their mind, communism is alway evil and communists never do good things other than pushing people around and killing them.

Actually, as a Chinese, I don't believe everything the government put in history textbook either. I want to see by my own eyes. Here are a coulp of simple but complicated questions to you readers:

If the Chinese government doesn't exaggerate how backward the serfdom society of Tibet used to be and what kind of brutal and inhuman lynches the old Tibet prisons had for serfs and slaves, how supportive will the Chinese people and the world be towards the "liberation" of Tibet 40 years ago??

If Dalai and his gangs doesn't make up the things such as that the Chinese government were committing genocide in Tibet and doesn't spread rumors everywhere abroad, how supportive will the Tibetans abroad and the world be towards the free-Tibet movement??

Isn't it clear to you all that the webmaster deletes all messages that doesn't support the theme for Tibet Independence?

It doesn't matter if you have an email address, if you write something about "Chinese aggression in Tibet", your message will be kept. Or else, even if you have a reasonable argument with an email address. he/she will still delete it.

Fucking Fascists are running this site!! Talking about FREEDOM OF SPEECH!! IS THIS THE WAY YOU TIBET INDEPENDENT ADVOCATORS TALK ABOUT FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY?? WHAT A JOKE!!

I hope that is not true. But know the Tibetans who are here in United States are the ones who were in power before 1959, so I wouldn't know the ordinary Tibetans who still unbothered by anyone living in Tibet today are suffering. Or just those who lost their money and power. I am an ethnic Chinese. although I disagree with thing PLA has done in the past, I found equally disappointed with what Dalai's hard-core followers are doing?? terrorist on Chinese population.

Man, I have found many anti-China posts on this fourm, as I expected. I hope the webmaster is not a racist??

Sirs, I happen to visit this website and read part of your commends about Tibet with some sorts of anger. Lots of people here seem hate chinese addimistration of Tibet and want Tibet independent.

I wander how much do you and people in this site know about the reality of recent Tibet? Has anyone of you visit Tibet in recent years? Have anybodies see real tibet by your own eye? If not, I would like to tell you some stories that is quite different to the people in western countries.

Regarding to the histroy of Tibet, Tibet was part of china in the past thoudsant year due the special geographical location of Tibet. Now there are only four high ways connect Tibet to outside world, one throught Xinjiang, one connect to Qinghai which was used for handred years and the third one is to Yunnan. Other one may be to India. The only goods transported by these highway are foods, daily neccessacities for Tibetian from other provinces. I had spent three years working in the northern Tibet as a geologist with native tibetian along the Tibet-Xinjiang highway. Of cause I know what the native Tibetian think and what they real want. Most of them believe the life is much better now than neibour countries. Without chinese help, they can not modernize their life in these short time. Dalai Lama is their religious leader, but most of native Tibetian don't agree with his action. They are alway wondering where was their religious leader when they had terrible nature desaster as snow storm in winter? I saw by my own eye that at least ten PLA soliders died in the 1985-87 winter in the deep mountains when they tried to rescue the native tibetian from snow storm around my working area. How many Dalai Lama's followers died by rescue their brothers? Where were you westerners when native tibetian had these sorts of problems?

Finally, as you people alway said that chinese have destroyed the tibetian culture. I want asking how much do you know about native tibetian's culture? And how much native culture in these world have been destroyed by so called western style life? Every person can keep their own lifestyle, this is the centre rule played in western countries. Tibetian who want to improve their life by import the modern equipment such as TV, moterbike, modern music have fault? If these change means destroy one's culture, the Devil is no others but you western countries because you people invent this kinds of things and chinese just adopted the new things.

As you were told by so called Tibetian girl that chinese kill or starve tibetian and occupied the vacant land. Do you believe these story? If you visit Tibet, you will find that every government office or any sorts of work units have at least one or more native tibetian leader who is in charge no matter his/her ability. As the "family policy" is basical law in china, Tibetian and other nationalities except Han (native chinese) are the exemption of these policy. They can have as much child as they like and chinese can only have one childrend due to the heavy population in china. Also, Tibetian and other nationalities (except Han) have advance to receive Tertiary education. In 1980, the entrance marks to the university for Han (native chinese) student was 300 in Xijinag and Tibet, but only 95 for Tibetian and ethic students. Do you think these polices is trying to destroy Tibetian?

Of cause I have lots of same sorts of stories to discuss with people in these websit. Unfortunately I have go to my study and hope you past this arguement to your friend and I would like to hear your comments. My point of view is to see the realities by your own eye and don't believe some refugee's words.

Sorry to disturb to and please contact me at:

gw03@hotmail.com or g03Guow.edu.au

Gan Wenlong from australia

I've found it ridiculous that some people on this board have such deep confusion between artistic expression and reality.

The question on current Tibet's political status is analogous to some other seemingly silly questions: "Whether or not California, Arizona etc should go back to Mexico?" "Should US recover slavery system in 1998?"

China is not perfect. But the image is highly distorted through the eyes of someone who think of China as a hypothetical political enemy.

Someone wrote earlier that the Japanese have apologized for their crimes during WWII and therefore the Chinese should "stop acting like victims" and focus on the quote crimes in Tibet. The fact of the matter is, Japan, unlike all of the other Axis powers and allies, has not apologized. During WWII, millions of Chinese died, many of them civilians executed in cold blood by the Japanese. While it might be true that two Japanese prime ministers have apologized, both qualified their statement by saying that they do not represent the Japanese government. Furthermore, numerous high ranking Japanese officials have stated that the Japanese were the victims during the war and that they were justified in all of their actions during the war. I understand how emotionally-involving the Tibet issue is, and it should be, considering that the life, freedom, and happiness of millions of people are at stake. However, I think that no rational human being should tolerate a stretching of facts and an erasing the suffering of countless millions.

I think that it was the webmater of this site who wrote earlier that before 1952?, the difference in the standard of living between lower class and upper class Tibetans were pretty big, but that it was no different from the difference between a normal American and Bill Gates. This argument is not valide. Before the communist takeover, the Tibetans practiced a serfdom that was no different from the one Russia was engaged in before the revolution. The serfs had little or no control over their lives while the landowners, the Dalai Lama being the biggest, lived in an luxury that would amaze even perhaps Bill Gates.

It has been said that the Chinese killed 1.2 million Tibetans. The World Book encyclopedia from that time stated that Tibet had a total population of 1.8 million in 1950. Considering also that "hundres of thousands" of Tibetans have fled since 1950, it is pretty amazing how large the Tibetan population is today, even excluding the Han Chinese who moved there.

I just want to add one thing to the posting above. Apart from the big difference in wealth in the cast system of the old Tibetan culture, slave-owners (monks included) also had absolute power over their slave, including life and death. I have old photos of Tibetan slaves being amputated by their Tibetan masters. It was common practice to torture slaves as a form of punishment for disobedience. Traditional Tibetan society was no utopia for the common people, notwithstanding the rights and wrongs of CCP policies.

This is a dialogue from another newsgroup.

Kalsang Norbu (norbu@concentric.net) wrote:

: And let's not go into the past to find a solution for the present and lets : not listen to propaganda messages like the PLA came to Tibet

The history that I have earlier quoted came from US history textbooks and not from China or from the People's Liberation Army of China.

: (that the PLA came) to liberate the : Tibetans from religious sect, the fact of the matter is, they wanted Tibet : for their own power and to satisfy their own greed.

Today, many generations later, little children grow-up, myself included. I was never involved in any of these past events, like many little Tibetan children. In today's world, what survives is the truth and our father's or grandfathers stories of either (1) hatreds against the Chinese government or (2) a remberance of tourture and death at the hands of the Dalai Lama. Those children who are descendants of native Tibetans will remember the past from stories their grandfather and history texts tell. Those who account for the cruelty of the Chinese government come from the religious sect of the Dalai Lama. These are two different groups of people. Those of the religious sect never claimed to be Tibetan. Their country was the buddhist sanctuaries and religious temples. They NEVER recognized a nationality other than their own temples and way of life. That is the reason for the great slaughter of native Tibetans. The Chinese government, on the other hand, put an end to that. Today, native Tibetans have autonomy under Chinese rule. Tibetans are similar enough to be classified as Chinese or a Chinese minority, read history text on ancient China...as written by authors in the US. I am sorry, I can't cite any at this time, The last time I read such a history text was quite long ago. You are wrong in your citing of facts below:

: And thirdly it is not a fact that 1 million Tibetans died under the coersion : of their own people. The fact is 1.2 million died, during the war itself : with the Chinese army and many more afterwards with imprisonment, toture and : hunger under the hands of those people who came to their home with the : promise of liberation.

Liberation for greed means that some different ethnic group of people (those who do not look like you) enslave you by killings and take your resources and labor for their economic advantage. That's what the Dalai Lama and his religion did against the Tibetan people, until the Chinese people and army put a stop to that.

: NoSpamlchow wrote in message <651qd0$ffv@mochi.lava.net>... : > : >Rational thoughts and words: : > : >One should not let emotions get the best of us. The question here: : >Is Tibet a part of China? Are native Tibetans a different ethnic group : >from the Han people of mainland China? : > : >The statement "Tibet is not part of China" is a legal conclusion and an : >opinion. It is not substantiated by fact. : > : >1) If one examines the migration patterns and language of tribal peoples, : >one finds that a study of ancient Chinese documents reveals that Chinese : >tribes settled in Tibet around 2,100 BC. These people were the dominent : >tribal residents of that land area. An out migration of these "native : >Tibetans" occured around 1,900 BC. This is factual information. : > : >We can assume that the inhabitants of Tibet, today, are the remenants of : >these Chinese tribal people mixed with other migrating tribesmen. : > : >2) The revolution in Tibet and the invasion by the Chinese Army in Tibet : >was to liberate the Tibetans from the religious sect of the Dalai Lama. : >According to what I seem to remember the religious sect put the native : >Tibetan people under their suzerainity through coersion and murder. About : >one million people (Tibetans) died as a result of the ethnic genocide from : >this religious sect. It was not such a peaceful religion, that it claims : >to be today. : > : >3) How can a religious sect claim to be Tibetan when they were removed : >from Tibet's native population of people and had their own religious : >government. A religious government can not represent a country, they : >were independant of. : > : >While I do not side with the Chinese government, today, completely. I can : >not see how people in Tibet can not forget the torture and outright murder : >wrought upon them by the sect of the Dalai Lama. It would be unheard of! : > : > : > : > : > : > : >- - - - - : >This post comes from a person of native Tibetan ancestry. : > : >

Anyone who uses the word "liberation" to describe the entry of the PLA into what is now the TAR can only confuse matters where clarity is sorely needed.

I for one don't think the 17-Article Agreement had anything to do with liberation of anything or anybody, any more than Lincoln's occupation of New Orleans had to do with any emancipation.

Despite its name, the PLA went to Tibet on a historic mission: the restoration of Chinese power and rights in Lhasa and the region, according to QianLong's Edict of 1793. All the paper works and shoutings were just background music. Enjoy it if you can, and turn it off if you must.

The reason is simple: Chinese troops were excluded from Tibet illegally by the English in 1913. Violence and threats of violence characterized English power in Tibet, 1913-1950. By 1950, such threats were no longer credible and Chinese troops, under the name of PLA, returned and the English fled, save a few laggards who were arrested and jailed.

All talks about who's freeing whom from what are irrelevant.

Serfdom and slavery persisted in Tibet until 1959, like slaverypersisted in loyal states and in loyal counties and loyal parishes within rebellious states for much of the period 1861-1865 in the US. No one was liberated in those areas during those years because of the America civil war.

If the Dalai Lama had not transmuted himself into a kind of Master Johnny Reb in 1959, no one would have been freed from his "hereditary indebtedness" in Tibet either.

Draw your own conclusion(s).

HI everybody, I am Tenzin Thinley. I read the Hanrerbook called Seven Years In Tibet. It was real great. Actually I am from Tibet and I think I know so much about the Tibet but he wrote too many about Tibet That I didn't know. So he is one that I admire for whole my life. I know he likes Tibet. I think he is the only one who knows so much about the Tibet before we lost our country.

I think I should stop right here. Thanks you Tenzin Thinley

It is relevant that Heinrich Harrer was a Nazi SS veteran. And the despicable nature of that regime and political murder was apparent long before they gassed millions of people. Harrer was closer to the Dalai Lama than any other foreigner except maybe Charles Bell, and helped shape his views on world politics.

The movie acknowledges his Naziism by comparing the Chinese Communists to the Nazis. Which is outrageous - for one thing, the Nazi movement was created specifically for the purpose of fighting against Communism. Its false and self-contradictory claim to be "national socialist" served the purpose of trying (not very successfully) of winning German workers away from Marxist internationalism to German nationalism.

Someone suggested Amnesty International as a source of documentation on the supposed 1.2 million Tibetans killed. I don't see anything on their website about this claim.

Apparently the original source is the Tibetan government-in-exile, and they offer nothing to support their claims. I looked on various human-rights and anti-genocide websites - they do not mention this number. Neither does the Tibet Information Network, as far as I can tell. Or Tibetan exile and historian Tsering Shakya, in his book The Dragon in the Land of Snows. Maybe they're all a little embarassed at this exaggerated accusation.

The TIbetan government-in-exile sometimes mentions a Chinese secret document allegedly captured by Tibetan guerillas. This document says that 87,000 Tibetans were killed between March 1959 and October 1960.

The CIA was heavily involved in supporting the Tibetan guerillas, and the document passed through their hands. So one has to consider the possibility that they forged or modified it. But let's suppose it to be genuine.

The 1959-1960 uprising was the period of the heaviest fighting in Tibet. There was some fighting earlier in Tibetan-inhabited areas east of the Dalai Lama's realm, but little fighting later aside from guerilla raids across the border from Nepal. Not only deaths in combat, but any killings of unarmed supporters of the rebels, would have been highest during this period.

There was some famine in eastern Tibetan areas in the late 1950's due to the sudden collectivization of agriculture and the so-called "Great Leap Forward." But the Dalai Lama's realm - today's Tibet Autonomous Region - was insulated from these policies and their effects.

So it's kinda hard to get from those 87,000 to 1.2 million.

The truth is, the population of Tibetans has grown significantly since 1959, due to modern medical care and public health measures and because there are fewer celibate monks. China's population-control policies are applied more loosely for Tibetans and other non-Han Chinese nationalities.

There's two problems with false accusations of genocide:

1. They make it harder for truthful accusations of genocide to be believed (the "boy who cried wolf" effect).

2. The North American and West European imperialist powers have been trying to establish a precedent that military intervention into other countries' internal affairs can be justified in the name of stopping genocide.

The parallel between the PLA's belated abolition of serfdom and Lincoln's belated abolition of slavery is interesting. Yet the fact is that the Civil War did end slavery in North America and the Chinese Revolution did eventually end serfdom in Tibet. Which, by the way, was much worse than anything in 1917 Russia - more like Dark Ages Europe, according to historians like Melvyn Goldstein and A. Tom Grunfeld.

Of course, the U.S. government's goal is not to restore feudalism in Tibet. Heck, they barely care about Tibet, other than as a tool in propaganda campaigns. The real deal is retaking China, with its 1.2 million people, which they've been chafing over "losing" ever since 1949.

--Evan Roberts
--http://members.home.net/tibetmyth