Large group with Quantum flash - Help needed

For group photographs I have two flashes (either Metz or Quantum) set up with umbrellas positioned to each side of the group, achieving pretty much flat lighting. I find people don't like shadows on the face especially. And with that lighting set up I can get through the list of group pictures pretty fast. Time is of essence at a wedding! I fire the flashes w/Pocket Wizards, one on each flash that way I don't have any cords and can move the lighting to other positions for the B&G and small group shots. I don't slave any of my flashes because others who are taking pics w/P&S cameras would set the slave flash off. I have my camera on a tripod and I use a Custom Bracket that allows me to move the camera to a vertical position quickly and easy. Sometimes will order (up to a 40/30) print and I believe it would be quite hard to obtain a crisp photograph hand holding the camera. Depending on the outcome of our meeting that determines the schedule of photos, we can do some beautiful creative images of the B&G if they so desire. I always plan it out to have some time after the group photos to do this because they will like the results.

Hope this helps you.

I use Sunpak 120Js, which are similar to the T5Ds. The most important fact is one that you haven't provided. What is the lighting like outside the front of the church at the time you need to shoot?

1. With my Sunpaks, I use one into an umbrella or bare, about 15 degrees to one side of the camera, with on-camera fill. For group shots, I don't use a veil light--it hardly shows. I rely on natural separation, but if the separation is really bad, I might set up something else, but that is usually rim light and not veil light.

2. Exposure depends on the ambient light, but with a tripod or steadying device, I drag the shutter as necessary to let in the appropriate ambient. I am usually at around f5.6, f8 for groups with rows, using at least a 35mm wide angle view. For small groups, I use closer to 50mm. Shutter speeds range down to about 1/15th, 1/8th on rare occasions. Beyond that, you might get blur from fast moving kids if your shutter drag margin isn't very large.

3. You should be able to use the T5Ds for the group shots. However, I am confused about whether you are talking about inside or outside. Outside, you are at the mercy of brighter light, unless it is dusk or night. Sometimes, even those flashes are puny if you are battling bright sun. What is the actual lighting condition outside? Outside, umbrellas are a PITA.

Easily 1 Td 5 will do the job fine..........tripod ~ iso 400 ~ 1 /20th 5.6 (or the ambient you have checked with your hand meter ) group in 2 rolls ....I mount my Quantum on my hot shoe. Do not overpower with the Q. You have to ratio the ambient to flash. Even try to bounce your flash into a white card --lite up the church ...it will look as though you had multiple flash heads and very diffused.

"For group photographs I have two flashes" - yes, that is what I did recommend before...

However one of the most prominent contributors here argued that a signle flash would eliminate a "double shadows" effect that 2 flashes could possibly produce.

Frank--two flashed toed inward produce cross shadows. Two flashes toed outward reduces that a lot. Two flashes, one on each side, not toed at all, also reduces that. So it depends.

I would just add, get a light meter. This could answer your questions on which settings to use. Especially when trying to balance ambient and flash light. Also it will help with shadow elimination by setting both lights to a 1-1 ratio exactly. I don't get shadow problems with 1 to1 lights toed in with medium 48" white bounce umbrellas.

I use the Quantum Qflash with the parabolic reflector straight on for outdoor group shots. I almost always have the groups back lit from one side and use the Quantum to soften the shadows. I am shooting at 1/250th and ISO 200 and whatever aperture that produces.

I have the Qflash head mounted to a monopod and held by my assistant to that it is slightly to one side of the tripod and about 2 feet higher than the camera position. I can quickly move around to change the background and my assistant maintains her position to one side.

Once I get past the large group shots and am working with just the B&G the camera comes off the tripod and I am completely mobile as is my Qflash on the monopod. If it is late in the day I will use the small Quantum soft box to soften the light and avoid overflashing which is easy with the Quantum at distances under 10 feet.

I use the same setup indoors except with an umbrella to spread and diffuse the light more. With just the Qflash in use outdoors there is no worry about wind. I did some calcs and even with a small 30" umbrella on a 6 foot light stand and 15 knots of wind I would need 50lbs minimum in sand bags to keep the light upright.

Having the flash too far to the side is going to put people in back rows in extreme shadow, especially when shooting outdoors. The tripod makes it faster to switch from verticals to horizontal shots and back again with each grouping. I use a Custom Brackets bracket mounted with a quick release plate.

I see the formals as more documentary in nature and not as formal group portraiture - there is not the time nor do people have the patience. I only want everyone properly exposed, in focus, and with both eyes open, and with groups of 20-40 people I am happy with that.

With a crop camera f5.6 provides sufficient depth of field for 4 rows deep, and with a full frame camera f8 provides more than enough DOF at normal distances for group formals. If you use a tripod you can get group shots of over 100 people and have everyone sharp with exposures of up to 1 second. You just need to do a count down. With small children present I just take at least 3 shots for insurance. At least one of the three will be fine.

I set up the tripod and the Qflash in under 5 minutes and from that point on I can shot a group every 2-3 minutes. I seldom have more than 30 minutes and the group list can be longer than the bride plans so I do not want to set up multiple lights or be looking for outlets. Having a single light near the tripod makes it easier to monitor small and large children running about and keep them from knocking over the camera or the flash. In churches space is usually limited and setting up light stands between the rows of pews is not worth the effort.

I like having a easy to transport, fast to set up, and consistent lighting setup - i.e. the KISS approach. One rapidly reaches a point of diminishing returns with regard to the group formals.

Sorry to not clarify that the formals will be inside the church inside the sanctuary in front of the altar. There have been two suggestions for using Q flashes.

1. Use one q flash in an umbrella or bounce it off a white card. If you use just one Q flash in an umbrella, how high do you place the umbrella? Is the umbrella silver or white lined? How far to the side do you place the umbrella?

2. Using two Q flashes in umbrellas. To Bill Clark, how do you position your two flashes. Are the at equal distance to your sides? Are the toed in or pointed straight forward? How far to the side are they positioned?

I guess my last concern is I feel that I am not grasping the concept of how to balance the ratio of ambient to flash so that the flash isn't overpowering. Can someone please explain the exact process they go through to meter and set exposure. I would start by taking an incident meter ambient reading of area ( I do have a flash meter Bob O'Sullivan) So lets say the meter reading at ISO 400 is f 5.6 1/25. So if I want to have my aperture at f8 for DOF, how do I meet in the middle without using flash as my primary light?

Thanks for all the replies.

Just to help:

http://www.amazon.com/Group-Portrait-Photography-Handbook-Hurter/dp/1584280824

I position the large group shots with the flashes at about 40 to 45 degrees off of the axis of the lens. You can place them as Nadine suggests as well. My recommendation is to gather up a group of your friends and have a session where you work on this subject, maybe at the curch where the wedding is going to take place. Then you would be better able to create the lighting as you see fit on the day of the gig. With Metz I run them at full power, manual, aand control everything from the camera with ISO setting, f stop and shutter with the shutter controlling the ambient light. Ambient can help with creating a certain mood with the pictures.

The real challenge with wedding photography is the various different lighting situations you encounter, some with multiple sources of light in the same room!

Light is really important with photography!

That's the simple way and it shouldn't get you into trouble as long as you have taken the time and effort to have a practice session. There are other things you can do with light positions, gels, but I would firs recommend you keep it simple and focus on the rapport you have with the people you are photographing.

Will you have an associate to help you? I always do. Things like people placement, body position, arms, legs, hands, clothing, jewelry, lots to look for when speed is of essence and the client wants really nice photographs.

Have you thought of doing your group shots in the back of the Church? My Coach and mentor, Monte Zucker taught a group of us how to have beautiful group photos with the atlar and surrounds in the background.

Gosh, you're asking some pretty important questions. That's great but if you're doing your third wedding aren't you putting the cart before the horse? Sorry, but this wedding photography is quite challenging and fun and I'm always learning.

Best to You!